Official Pocket Size

[Sogartar]

Hi,
I am now searching over the net to find what is the official snooker pocket size at it's narrowest point. Couldn't so far. I have the "147 Haven and Hell" video. On Stephen Hendry's break against Jimmy White at Crucible, 1995, there was for a moment an overhead view. Although, the quality of the video is poor, it seams the pocket is a little less than two balls wide. This was also confirmed by the World Snooker Championship 2005 computer game, where the pocket is a few millimetres tighter than two balls.
Does anyone know what is the Official standard?

[The Statman]

There is no stated official size, but pockets must conform to the WSA's official templates.

These give widths, at the top of the cushion, of 3½ inches for corner pockets and 4 inches for middle pockets. Compared with a ball with of 23/16 inches and you are indeed correct in saying that it is just short of two ball's-widths.

Remember that the cushion is slightly undercut so in effect there is slightly more than the 3½" available. (If you imagine in this diagram, that the 7 is the cushion and the O is the ball, the edge of the ball can slightly fall under the cushion face: 7O .)

The templates measure (a) that the cushions at the jaws are the correct shape: the part between the curved surface and the pocket itself should be straight and parallel with the other so the 3½-inch measurement is consisten from the back of the pocket to the start of the curve; (b) the undercut: a second template checks that the undercut of the cushion is not too pronounced allowing a ball to reach futher 'under' the cushion than it should; and (c) the fall of the pocket: when the template is slotted into its position, the actual drop must be able to be seen beyond the template, and not be underneath it (which would have the effect of making the pockets much 'easier;).

You must remember when thinking of a comparison between club and professional tables, that the pocket measurements themselves may be the same, but it is not just the figures that affect the pocket's performance.

The fall of the pocket is one of the important factors here. On a professional table the bed of the table meets the pocket at a virtually sheer drop; whereas on many club tables there is a very noticeable curved part. This means that a ball that could stop on the edge of a professional pocket and stay up might well drop in on a club table, purely because that bit of the table is already on the downward curve.

The length of the curve of the jaw cushion also plays its part: On a professional table, I would imagine that the cushion curves at about the same as the diameter of a ball (that is to say, if a ball was placed on top of the cushion in the necessary place, the cushion curve below it would roughly match.) Whereas, on a club table, you will often see that the curve, if continued to make a full circle, would be more like the size of a cereal bowl. This of course means that the jaw starts to accept a ball much further from the pocket, and also affects the return angle of a ball which hits the jaw but does not drop.

Also, the undercut can vary widely on club tables – even different pockets on the same table!

There is a bit more on the subject here: http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=9319&highlight=template

[Driller]

Hello there, I wanted to dig this thread up if you don't mind. I've been doing a lot of research on the net on this subject (as the templates are so jealously guarded). I have found a few instances which confirm the 3 1/2 and 4 inch measurements. However, interestingly I found this page

http://www.johnvirgo.com/clinic.asp

where people are able to ask John Virgo snooker questions. Below is an extract:

Q. Hello John. What are the official snooker pocket opening sizes when playing with 2 1/16th inch snooker balls? Jim Vanos
A. Dear Jim. The size of the pocket openings vary. Having made enquiries with Mr Jim Watt of Northern Snooker & Pool Services, Cumbria, the sizes are: On a match table 35/16 and on your normal club table 35/8. Happy potting JV.

So is this an error on John's part or am I understanding wrong?

35/16 (thirty five sixteenths of an inch)= 2 and 3 1/6's inches which is quite a bit less than the 3 1/2 inches mentioned.

35/8 (thirty five eighths of an inch) = 4 and 3/8's inches which is a bit more but not by much.

Has John made a mistake or have things changed? Many thanks for any light you can shed on this.

[The Statman]

'''.

So is this an error on John's part or am I understanding wrong?

35/16 (thirty five sixteenths of an inch)= 2 and 3 1/6's inches which is quite a bit less than the 3 1/2 inches mentioned.

35/8 (thirty five eighths of an inch) = 4 and 3/8's inches which is a bit more but not by much.

I think it is a typographical issue and the 35/16 means 3 and 5/16 inches; the 35/8 means 3⅝.

[Driller]

Of course! I can't believe I didn't see that :o Thank you very much indeed for the reply. I'm having a slate bed pool/snooker table made for me over here and I want to make sure they get the pocket sizes right. On the French Federation de Billard site they suggest that for an English pool table the pockets should be 76.2mm which is 3 inches exactly. Now since my table is going to be more like an 8 foot snooker table (and I intend to play snooker on it) this would definately seem on the tight side.

[moglet]

The Statman, when you say the measurement at the slate drop do you mean, in plan, that this measurement is where the slate drop arc intersects the cushion arcs or the line drawn at 90º to the mid line and tangent to the the slate drop arc?

[moglet]

If my understanding is correct, the "at the slate drop" dimension is the second in my previous post.

To answer the origin thread question, the narrowest dimension is 3 1/4" and coincides with the slate drop/cushion intersections.

John Virgo's answer is correct in that, at the drop or fall, the dimension is 3 5/16".

There is no undercut of the cushion.

[The Statman]

The Statman, when you say the measurement at the slate drop do you mean, in plan, that this measurement is where the slate drop arc intersects the cushion arcs or the line drawn at 90º to the mid line and tangent to the the slate drop arc?Ooh, hang on, I've got to think about that one!

Let me break your sentence down and work out what you are asking, and then work out my reply!

But first I must check PaulTheSoave's score for the Malta first round predictions, or I'll never hear the end of it!

[moglet]

These might help:

[The Statman]

Ah right.

The 3½" I was talking about is simply the width of the pocket, between the two parallel cushion faces. Although I must admit it was guesswork on my part as to which bit exactly the 3½ refers to.

As far as I am aware, the actual figures have never been quoted anywhere; merely the template provides the yes or no answer.

[moglet]

Yes, it is confusing, the middle pocket particularly, here we have to assume the "at the fall" measurement is taken differently from the corner, nevertheless small changes to these dimensions, wherever they are taken, make noticeable changes to the way the pocket behaves.

[The Statman]

Yes, it is confusing, the middle pocket particularly, here we have to assume the "at the fall" measurement is taken differently from the corner, nevertheless small changes to these dimensions, wherever they are taken, make noticeable changes to the way the pocket behaves.And the reason no actual measurement is quoted, is probably precisely because of the amount of wording required to specify exactly what is being measured!

But it is generally accepted that the measurements (with however many ifs and buts) is 3½" for corners and 4 for middles (at least since 1926 – see the other thread that I linked to on my first message).

[moglet]

Er, yes, but I assumed the OP was asking about current professional snooker match pockets as opposed to club or amateur standards. The original billiards template, with no undercut, has been altered so much over the years and the changes made controversial and difficult to research with any certainty though there is little doubt about the current pro snooker and pro billiards templates.

[missneworleans]

Wasn't pockets in old times smaller???

[Semih_Sayginer]

over the years there does seem to be a heck of a lot of players, commentators and media people who talk about pocket size, and the differences in them over the years, without too many facts being quoted, at least on tv (not a lot of times anyway)

seems like a never ending debate

[hegeland]

Indeed Semih, that's because those who know (WSA) prefer to keep everything secret and also there are other factors such as cushions and cloth to take into consideration as well which makes it more complicated. But I would say the main reason is that WSA keep some sort of copyright of their templates, totally absurd IMO, like if FIFA would keep the measurements of the ball or the goal a secret. Because of all the hush-hush we can only speculate.

[moglet]

So some interest, is good:)

If we are to get anywhere useful with this, is there anybody else here who has played to and understands the current pro snooker template? I hear a lot of waffle :) but nothing concrete. In fact, whoever you are, if you do play on a table do you know to which standard you are playing? Taking a single measurement is futile unless there is a known framework or shape that can be taken as a given, on most tables there is no given.

[moglet]

Wasn't pockets in old times smaller???

Pardon, but which pockets and when?:) At one time in the past snooker was played to the old billiards template, it seems it was too difficult for struggling professionals and made easier for them.

The "old times" billiards pocket was, correct me if I'm wrong, bigger than the current snooker pro template. Certainly the older template is tighter than any normal club pocket and it was not undercut which makes the pocket smaller, as explained in an earlier post.

OK, in answer to the cloth thing, it does make a small difference but only on newly covered tables but not as much as you'd think. The cushion cloth was changed for another reason and, incidentally, does not work.

[Driller]

These might help:

Moglet, these diagrams are mighty impressive and look very authentic. Are these traced from a table you have acces to or do they come from existing templates? In any case, if you confirm that they are the real deal (and as I said they sure look like it) I shall use them for my table being made.

[buduk]

i could do with some help also as my table pockets seem really tight for beginner like me,and wondered if they could be made bigger ? and a rough cost to get someone out to take a look and correct if need be? i live in the Carlisle area if this helps or point me in the right direction of a fitter that would come here to take a look ,i feel thta in my local club there a bit more generous and if i can alter them would make my enjoyment of the game loads better as some shots seem as if there going in then just rattle out or wipe it feet b4 going in the only measurement i made was in the corner pocket and the nearest point of the cushion which was 3 and a quater inch

[moglet]

Buduk,

If yours is a private table and not one acquired as tournament standard it is not likely to be too tight, unless I know exactly what you are measuring and where little can be made of the "real" size of your pockets. Are you referring to both corner and middles?

"Standard" amateur pockets are well known and well documented, however understanding the variations is much more difficult.

Any competent fitter can make your pockets comfortable for you, they will not need to be re-rubbered to make them bigger, just recovered (perhaps, if you are lucky £150) but you do need to know what to ask for, and that's the difficult bit.

So far as the corners are concerned, this might help to identify your pocket standard, I need at least the "A" measurement:
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=1145&stc=1&d=1204245348

[buduk]

thx for your help ill take a look when i get back from work as for the middle pockets they seem fine its just the corners

[buduk]

dunno if i have done this right but here goes !! A = 115mm B=80mm and C=50mm but not sure if i have done this correctly but thx anyways

[moglet]

Buduk, even allowing for any possible small inaccuracies, your corner pockets are very tight. You did well to take the measurements. We haven't established where the slate drop is, but your corner pocket jaws are slightly tighter than the professional snooker template. You are right to want them made a little easier.

One further task for you to do, to measure the slate drop. This is probably easier than taking geometrical measurements but it will also confirm the "A" measurement you took.

The attachment shows an arrangement of four standard 2 1/16" balls in the pocket opening. All balls should be touching and the two nearest the cushion should touch the cushion. (I assume your pockets are not undercut?). The two balls that are a set for the corner pocket should also be a set for the opposite middle pocket. If you look where the two outer balls actually touch the cushion, on a match pocket the points where the balls touch the cushion are close to being coincident with the start of the jaw (that is the "A" measurement is about 5.00" or 5.25" {127 or 133mm}). That confirmed and the two balls touching the cushion are not within the geometry of the pocket, if you slip a British coin under the ball nearest the pocket (golf ball marking style) so it just touches the underside of the ball's curvature, what value coin does not cover or overhang the start of the slate drop?

1152

Ignore the 3.25" measurement for the moment.

[buduk]

i would say the only coin that reaches it would be 2p coin ? is this any help

[moglet]

Do you know the history of your table?

The slate drop seems to be the same as a match pocket, is the edge of the fall fairly sharp? Steel block cushions?

[buduk]

i havent a clue about the cushions etc i bought the table from a club that has had it for as long as the members can remember ,i rang someone who used to mentain it in the past and said the cushions or something had been replaced so it wouldn't be a big job but not sure what they had replaced
all they told me was it cost 1200 quid to do ?

[bongo]

Compared with a ball with of 23/16

Hi, I've read your information, very good and interesting, but again, something very small, isn't a ball 2 1/16 inches?!

[The Statman]

Hi, I've read your information, very good and interesting, but again, something very small, isn't a ball 2 1/16 inches?!Yes of course; but what's an eighth of an inch between friends? As you say, very small!

[senga147]

Nobody has mentioned, (at least I don`t think they have) the role that the cut of the slate plays in the size of the pocket. Club tables have the edge more `rounded` over whereas tournament tables have a vertical fall with very little round. The result of this is that the ball has to travel further into the pocket opening before it will fall. The cut of the rubbers on club tables is undercut which `opens` the pocket. I have a set of the new IBSF templates.

[The Statman]

I did actually mention that in the second post of the thread. But it is very important and certainly worth repeating. Far more than the bare measurements affects the behaviour of the pocket.

[senga147]

You did. Sorry I missed it.

[bongo]

I am going to come back to this topic, and just say my thoughts on it.

Surely, the cushion would affect the 'tightness' of the pocket, if the cushion was a steel block cushion, then when the ball goes in the pocket, there would be more of a wobble effect in the jaws as the ball has a lot of speed due to the lively cushion. Also, the pocket leather, which in most clubs is old and hard, would affect the pocket as a ball may come out of the back of the pocket becuase it hit the hard leather.

[nideKer]

Hello All!
Statman thx for the valuable information.

I have a two questions:

1. You post a template - like this:
http://sites.google.com/site/poolbuilding/_/rsrc/1237561270974/snuker_ip/02%20%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8B%20 %D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B7%20%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F%20%D0%B8%D 0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0_Page_1.jpg?height=296&width=420
edges on that template referable to a end of the rubber or wood-rail (on which get sticky rubber)?

And second question:
If somebody would post a few photo of rail\cushions near corner pocket without a cloth - for better understanding a construction of the rail.

It would be amazing for me!

Previously thx a lot!!! :) :snooker:

[The Statman]

Hello All!
Statman thx for the valuable information.

I have a two questions:

1. You post a template - like this:
...
edges on that template referable to a end of the rubber or wood-rail (on which get sticky rubber)?As far as I know, the template is applied to the table AFTER the cloth and cushions have been fitted.

The template has to fit into the pocket opening, once the table has been fully assembled, snugly and without any wobble or incinsistent gaps between the edge of the cushion and the edge of the template.

By the way, please do not assume that I am an expert table fitter. I am most definitely not!

[nideKer]

:) Thanks Statman!And a stupid question - if not secret - Where you have taken this picture? :D:confused:

[The Statman]

:) Thanks Statman!And a stupid question - if not secret - Where you have taken this picture? :D:confused:
The picture that you quoted was not mine!

[nideKer]

ooops Sorry!
It picture from - moglet!

Then all questions above - spesial for moglet! :D

[moglet]

nideKer,

This link to Peradon and Fletcher gives you some idea of the rail without cloth:

http://www.peradon.co.uk/pages/equipment/cushions.html

I have some photos of steel block construction, but theses won't be much help if yours are wood block.

[nideKer]

moglet Thx for the link!

it good information for me!

If to you it is not complex please post Your photos of steel block construction! I need it for undersending of the construction of rail\cushions.

And I have another one question. With a pocket templates I have understood, but with undercutting of rails ... If rubber must be undercutted (in pocket jaws) - then must be a template for undercutting the rail !? Or how can be a projected this knot ( pocket undercat, contiguity of the rails, etc)??!!

I Hope my question is understandable! :)

[moglet]

nideKer,

The drawings I put up were intended as a guide only, I notice the attachments are missing no doubt due to recent upgrades of the forum. The professional pockets do not have any undercut so there is no template for doing the undercut, amateur pockets can be undercut so there is a secondary template that sets the amount of undercut. I suspect that most fitters would set the undercut by eye and experience and not rely on the templates, I can add very little to what Geoff Large has posted elsewhere, perhaps he could give you the method he uses for doing the undercuts if you want yours this way.

I have put some images of a steel block rail "end" in this thread:
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=16314

[nideKer]

Thanks again moglet! :)


The professional pockets do not have any undercut so there is no template for doing the undercut

hmmm, here You said about rails or rubber? :confused:
In the information on a forum I have received understanding about pockets, templates and undercutting but - If You said above, about rubber :rolleyes: - I have a photo of the rail of table on which pass the Championship of the Europe - and there rubber is undercutted.

Or simply, I have got confused in terminology... Hope You`ll help me! ;)

PS: Or on my photo it`s just cut of the rubber , and on your photo - it`s undercut?

[moglet]

nideKer,

Your photo does not look as if the rubber was undercut, the photos of mine in the other thread are of a set taken from a domestic table with amateur pockets, these were undercut.

This diagram might help to explain the degree and effect of undercutting the rubber:

2881

[alex_5525]

lifes in the pocket baby, lifes in the bag..... dont let your problems, become a drag

sorry just needed to get that off my shoulders

[nideKer]

!!! Ooooo!!! I think I have understood!!!! thanks a lot moglet and all! :D :snooker:

[moglet]

There seem to be so many threads asking questions about pocket templates, this looks to be the best coverage for the general topic.

Theses are dimensional drawings of the professional pockets checked against 2005 and 2006 Crucible tables:

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This photo is of the IBSF template in a WPBSA cut pocket, a B&SCC template will not go into the same pocket and is as different as the IBSF comparison, but bigger:

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This is a diagram of three templates overlaid, confusing for the IBSF pair, I think the finer green trace of the drop and undercut of the IBSF set (what's it doing there?) can be ignored unless someone has seen a Wiraka M1 set to this template. The finer blue trace indicates the amount of undercut on the B&SCC pocket. The top blue drop curve is what you might expect in a club:

removed

These are the middle pockets, remember the IBSF and B&SCC are both undercut unlike the WPBSA. Again, the IBSF drop looks too far into the pocket?:

removed

If you would like any information or drawings please PM me for IBSF, B&SCC, Riley/Rex Williams or WPBSA (Please say which year).

[nideKer]

moglet it`s a great information!

Big thx! :) :snooker:

[moglet]

moglet it`s a great information!

Big thx!


Hi nideKer,

Beware, it is not quite as simple as that, things may change, as they appear to have already, and, now that Star tables have the contract.

The templates and "drawings" are for a finished pocket, it requires further skill to make cutting templates to allow for cloth thickness and slight distortion of the rubber under tension.

[saddler79]

Gonna have a measure of the pockets at my local club the next time I play me thinks. I would challenge the best professionals in the world to make a 120+ on these tables. Even a century would be a massive achievement. Tightest tables ive played on by a mile.

Nice to now what they roughly should be now though.

[moglet]

Gonna have a measure of the pockets at my local club the next time I play me thinks. I would challenge the best professionals in the world to make a 120+ on these tables. Even a century would be a massive achievement. Tightest tables ive played on by a mile.

Nice to now what they roughly should be now though.

Perhaps, but also perhaps not, the set of the jaws is critical, tiny alterations in the profile (0.25mm here or there) can make really big differences in the way the pocket behaves when the pockets are "closed up" from earlier templates. The "original" WPBSA pockets, since 2000, were entirely fair if applied properly, yes the pocket was difficult from the midline, the pink spot, but the pocket would accept a ball down the cushion if it was within 2 or 3mm of the cushion and parallel to it at pace. This is what has changed, the pockets are not balanced now and certainly not as close to a "normal" standard, as they could and should be if an established standard was seen as important. Recently we have seen pockets on tournament tables that are ridiculously easy from the body of the table and yet impossible down the cushion, we see the reverse of course but what we don't see is consistent pocket response - there is a great deal more to it than just the type, quality and "age" (usually its only been on for a few hours before pundits claim the response has changed) of the cushion cloth.

I guess that until sufficient professional players stand up and voice their opinions this ludicrous situation will continue. Most pros can pot directly to the centre of a pocket, without fail, "impossibly" tight pockets are always unreasonable and can make the players look silly especially when they are faced with other variables that are still unresolved.

[saddler79]

Perhaps, but also perhaps not, the set of the jaws is critical, tiny alterations in the profile (0.25mm here or there) can make really big differences in the way the pocket behaves when the pockets are "closed up" from earlier templates. The "original" WPBSA pockets, since 2000, were entirely fair if applied properly, yes the pocket was difficult from the midline, the pink spot, but the pocket would accept a ball down the cushion if it was within 2 or 3mm of the cushion and parallel to it at pace. This is what has changed, the pockets are not balanced now and certainly not as close to a "normal" standard, as they could and should be if an established standard was seen as important. Recently we have seen pockets on tournament tables that are ridiculously easy from the body of the table and yet impossible down the cushion, we see the reverse of course but what we don't see is consistent pocket response - there is a great deal more to it than just the type, quality and "age" (usually its only been on for a few hours before pundits claim the response has changed) of the cushion cloth.

I guess that until sufficient professional players stand up and voice their opinions this ludicrous situation will continue. Most pros can pot directly to the centre of a pocket, without fail, "impossibly" tight pockets are always unreasonable and can make the players look silly especially when they are faced with other variables that are still unresolved.

Good response moglet. I'm not sure whether its just the age and condition of the tables I play on or irregular pockets but the recent tournament tables I have seen on the TV are far more forgiving than these (i.e even catching a fair chunk of the near jaw and still dropping). Its IMPOSSIBLE to pot a ball down the cushion on the tables I play on at anything other than drop in weight. Even a black sent slightly onto the far jaw will not drop. They may be inconsistent but i'd take a tournament table any day compared. My breaks would go through the roof :)

I think its only fair to point out though that whilst the tables I play on run fast and true I suspect they are old and need some attention. The main factor here could be that the jaws have become less receptive over years of use rather than an issue with pocket size or profile but its nice to see a thread discussing it.

[Terry Davidson]

I have a set of IBSF templates and I'm pretty sure moglet has both IBSF and B&SCC plus engineered drawings of the WPBSA.

To show you how bad it is, moglet and I exchanged pictures of our IBSF templates and it certainly appeared his (an earlier version) were a different size than mine. Amazing!

Also, the templates do help but they definitely do not answer all the questions. Most people say automatically the pockets should be 3-1/2in and on my templates they are around that size at about 83.5mm, so slight smaller however they don't really tell you where to measure that width.

For a full sized table with 2-1/16in balls I'd recommend about 3-1/2in at the centre of the fall, not the top apex. This will produce reasonable sized pocket which will take a medium paced shot along the cushio. Middle pockets across the middle points of the fall are approx 4-1/2in and this will allow the pink to be 'slammed' into the middle pocket as the pros are able to do on their tables and also allows those sharply oblique middle shots to a degree

Terry

[nideKer]

hmmmm...

moglet how i understood drawings of the pockets which You shown - it`s nearly coincide with WPBSA cut?

Recently ive made a "template" from pockets on table in our club. And now I can compare both drawings. (watch attached pictures. black and blue lines - "my" template (84 mm width on corner jaw) red lines drawing by moglet attach (80.3 mm width on corner jaw))

In my club - jaws wider than in your drawing on nearly 3.6 mm, and have another curve. But in this club play only amateurs... ))

I am really disappointed that for snooker pockets are not present the uniform standard like in pool or russian billiard...

[moglet]

nideKer,

Interesting, your blue lines for the drop or fall - do these indicate where the ball will just stay "up"?

[nideKer]

moglet,

blue line indicate a start of the slate drop.

[moglet]

nideKer,

I've put a B&SCC main template set onto your drawings, the corner is a near perfect match, the middles don't conform to any of the three types. The B&SCC are in green.

Your drops would be unusual on a UK table, to get to the WPBSA template from a club type table the slate is normally built out with a suitable resin and reformed with a much sharper edge.

29102911

[nideKer]

sorry for the offtop, but what is B&SCC? I can`t find any information about this organisation.

[moglet]

sorry for the offtop, but what is B&SCC? I can`t find any information about this organisation.

Billiards & Snooker Control Council, apparently went bankrupt but used to be the Governing Body:

2929

http://www.eaba.co.uk/mags/bqr/1992/04/editorial.html

[Terry Davidson]

The B&SCC function has been taken over by the IBSF for international side and I guess the EASB for England as the B&SCC used to run England too. The EASB and your association would report to the IBSF on snooker and English billiards matters

Terry

[tcollick]

Hi everyone,

I am having my cushions and at the same time pocket size redone. (sorry Terry!)
Using Moglets and nideKer's templates (thanks guys) I have managed to work out what is required for corner pockets based on a pocket width of 82mm (3 1/5"). For this I will use B = 82mm (pocket width at drop) A = 120mm (width between start of curve between cushions). The distance between A and B is around 40mm.
With these dimensions I'm hoping to have close to tournament pockets. (rather than the very forgiving "home" pockets I have now on which the cushions are not parallel but open and pots go in even if missed on near or far jaws).
Please let me know if I've gone horribly wrong here with the calculations!

However I was hoping someone could help me out with the middle pockets.
I read that the standard is 4 inches, but is that from where the cushions meet the pocket drop?, or from the very end of the cushions?

On some tables I think this is irrelevent because both are the same, but on the one I use (a riley) the cushions meet the drop before the cushion ends, so the width here is wider then at the end of the cushions.

Sorry if it all sounds confusing, and thanks in advance

Note added: For middles I ended up using 95mm (3 3/4") for A , and 190mm (7.5") for B (distance between curve start on cushions either side of pocket). The curve is quite narrow..more like a tennis ball rather than a dinner plate. Conclusion...tough...brush the near knuckle and theres no chance of it going in...but very satisfying nailing the pink.

[anu11]

hey moglet,, could u send me the drawings of the pocket?

[Redshift]

A newbie question: are the pocket dimensions different for 10' vs 12' tables? I wouldn't think so but this looks like the group to ask.

[tcollick]

Like Snookerpoolman (who is a pro table fitter and fine chap to boot) says on http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=23078 , I think the norm for 10ft is the same as 12ft with regards to pocket openings. But you will see by this thread that this varies greatly within full size tables from "WSA Tournament cut" through to "make everyone feel like a pro pockets like buckets cut". I changed mine from the latter to (closer) to the former, and its definately more rewarding even tho I miss a few...ok...loads.

[Redshift]

Thank you. I am planning on purchasing a 10' table later this spring. I unfortunately cannot fit a 12' into the room without cramping the shots. When I decide on a builder, I will want to be sure they are using the correct template.

[tcollick]

Yep, sorry if that sounded confusing. I understand that its a 10footer.. for which fullsize pockets and fullsize balls are the standard...all I meant is that there are a lot of variations for fullsize pockets, so you probably want the template based on how tough or easy you want the table to play.

[Redshift]

Tough is the only way I would want it. Where can I find the tournament size dimensions? Thanks.

[tcollick]

Moglet and Terry both have template drawings which aren't on here, but if you ask maybe they will send to you. nideKer has posted templates here which I think also show Moglets in a different colour. When I did my pockets, I used those by nideKer but the problem is they are not to scale, so I also measured a local club table that I liked and based my own template on both. This is just my opinion and findings...a tough corner pocket (drop width..."B" on nideKer's original attachment) is between around 80-83mm, and a tough middle around 90-95mm. For the cushion curve start on corners, add around 20mm on each side. So the width between cushions at where the curve begins is around 120mm ("A" on nideKer's original attachment) For middle it is around double the pocket width, so 180-190mm. Most important is the angle of the curve..if you want it to be a tough opening think if it as the angle of a tennis ball (if easy it would be more like an LP). I used a compass, and connected point A to point B on both sides using the smallest radius possible. Hope this helps..I am happy with the results.

[Redshift]

Good information. Thanks. I'm new on the forum so when you say Terry, do you mean Terry Davidson (he responded to one of my posts earlier)?

[tcollick]

Yep. Terry is da man. Maybe you should pop over and see him...you guys are next door right:D

[Redshift]

Thanks, maybe i will.

[nideKer]

If it needed, I can attach a drawings of the templates (for printing in scale).

[Redshift]

That would be very helpful. Thank you.

[nideKer]

I`ve attach a *.DWG file. (You can edit & print with nanocad 2.0 - it`s a freeware)

By red lines I`ve show template by Moglet`s drawings. by white lines I`ve show a template sketched from the table from my local club.

[Redshift]

Thank you very much. I am talking to a table builder now and will pass this on to them.

[jorock63]

can we buy the templates anywhere???

[bongo]

can we buy the templates anywhere???

I think they are very difficult to find.

[tcollick]

Wikaka sell them but they are expensive.
I recommend getting the designs from here (Many poster like Moglet, ninekder and Terry are friendly and helpful) then cutting out the curve you want for the pocket (upto where the curve is parallel to the cushion) from cardboard or thick paper. You only need to do two. One for the corners and one for the middles. You can flip them over for the opposing cushion. I did this and my pockets are spot on. Any decent fitter should be able to replicate your cardboard templates to the cushions. Its a bit Blue Peter but it works!

[Terry Davidson]

You cannot purchase the WPBSA templates as they don't sell them and only their table fitters get a set.

You can purchase the IBSF templates for about (I think) $400US and they do come from Wiraka but you must order via the IBSF. I have a set here as I'm a referee and sometimes have to check a table's pockets.

For my own table I used Moglet's drawings of the WPBSA templates which he got about 5 years ago I think and they are slightly larger than the IBSF ones.

There are many ways to make a pocket take a ball easier other than just the pocket opening. It also depends how far the fall of the slate comes out into the table and if the flat of the cushion has been rounded off at the pocket opening or even cut away on the bottom as a lot of tables had been done in Canada in the old days.

See if you can get a DVD of a pro snooker match and then stop it when they have a good view of the pockets and take a good look. That along with the drawings supplied here should give you a good idea of what to look for.

If you live near the border with Ontario you could always come to my facility and have a look at my templates and the pockets on my table to get a good idea.

Terry

[DeanH]

I`ve attach a *.DWG file. (You can edit & print with nanocad 2.0 - it`s a freeware)

By red lines I`ve show template by Moglet`s drawings. by white lines I`ve show a template sketched from the table from my local club.

Please can you send these as scaled drawings but as PDF please, the DWG veiwers I have will not open the file and I cannot install NanoCAD.
Many thanks
DeanH

[noel]

What don't I understand about this?

Oh ya... why on earth are pocket templates TOP SECRET?!?!?



=o\

Noel

[Terry Davidson]

Because the WPBSA didn't want anyone finding out their templates are easier than the official amateur ones of course. The drop of the slate comes out into the table another 1/4" or so and their corner pocket openings are about 1/8" larger but the really big difference is in the middle pockets, which are quite a bit easier than the IBSF amateur templates (which to my mind are way too tight).

I wonder how many century breaks from the pros have been helped by those easier middle bags since almost every century I've ever seen includes quite a few pot to the middle bags.

However, I have noticed these new Star tables look to be a bit tighter than the old BCE/Riley tables they used to use.

It also helps them as they use the #10 cloth and it's always new, so the balls will slide in easier than on your normal amateur table.

Terry

[noel]

Because the WPBSA didn't want anyone finding out their templates are easier than the official amateur ones of course.Terry

Thanks Terry.
Silly me... I would have thought that
A LEVEL PLAYING TABLE
would be in everyone's best interest!


=o(

Noel

[jorock63]

Well I live in New York,,but on vacation in Malaysia ( im a Malaysian )..thanks for the info

[nideKer]

Please can you send these as scaled drawings but as PDF please, the DWG veiwers I have will not open the file and I cannot install NanoCAD.
Many thanks
DeanH

Tomorrow I`ll attach a pdf.
My friend and I have a public web-site
http://sites.google.com/site/poolbuilding/snuker_ip
We are post there all information which could find in internet. You always can use this information! (You can use on-line translater for reading description)

(But, I didn`t change the template drawing there yet...)

Regards! :snooker:

[nideKer]

As I`m promised I have uploaded a pdf with templates.

pdf - http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=4847&d=1282735166

dwg - http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=4139&d=1267456358

Regards. :snooker:

[seppo147]

We have two tables made by IBSF amateur templates. Like them 2-4 weeks,after that start to be too hard to play because cloth getting bad in jaws. For aiming practise they are super but brakebuilding practise hard. One ex-pro did not wanted to play on those tables ,they are not fair.

[nideKer]

We have two tables made by IBSF amateur templates.

It`s all about "fitter hands"... :cool:

[choice]

Because the WPBSA didn't want anyone finding out their templates are easier than the official amateur ones of course. The drop of the slate comes out into the table another 1/4" or so and their corner pocket openings are about 1/8" larger but the really big difference is in the middle pockets, which are quite a bit easier than the IBSF amateur templates (which to my mind are way too tight).

I wonder how many century breaks from the pros have been helped by those easier middle bags since almost every century I've ever seen includes quite a few pot to the middle bags.

However, I have noticed these new Star tables look to be a bit tighter than the old BCE/Riley tables they used to use.

It also helps them as they use the #10 cloth and it's always new, so the balls will slide in easier than on your normal amateur table.

Terry

The cushion height is different, it's lower and the undercut is different,on the new star tables.:confused::confused:

[jayhoming]

can anyone take few pictures of the standard pockets on a full size table? both corner/side pockets. it will be great to have 1 or 2 balls to show the size of pocket. the reason i'm asking is that our pool hall just received a full size STAR table, but the corner pockets are so tight, it's only about 3". so, really appreciate someone's help

[nideKer]

can anyone take few pictures of the standard pockets on a full size table? both corner/side pockets. it will be great to have 1 or 2 balls to show the size of pocket. the reason i'm asking is that our pool hall just received a full size STAR table, but the corner pockets are so tight, it's only about 3". so, really appreciate someone's help
I think it won't help but anyway, You can use links above in my posts, maybe it might help.

[The Statman]

can anyone take few pictures of the standard pockets on a full size table? both corner/side pockets. it will be great to have 1 or 2 balls to show the size of pocket. the reason i'm asking is that our pool hall just received a full size STAR table, but the corner pockets are so tight, it's only about 3". so, really appreciate someone's helpWell I always understood that, purely in terms of measurement, the corner pockets should be 3½" wide, and the middle pockets, 4".

[Cue_Seeker]

These might help:

Was there a diagram in this picture? I have the hardest time understanding the measurement of the pocket drop, I get the 3 and half inches and all, but would be nice if the program is back.

I also wonder if there are pocket kits to tighten the pockets, like a strip of cushion can be attached to your pockets, making them "less undercut" to make pockets tighter.