England v Scotland

[MattWilson]

Anybody know if this is still going ahead this weekend? Due to be played in Leeds according to last year's EASB calendar...

MW

[jhr145]

Anybody know if this is still going ahead this weekend? Due to be played in Leeds according to last year's EASB calendar...

MW
Matt it,s been cancelled

[Souwester]

As far as I understand the situation, Scotland cancelled the event, as originally scheduled, only this morning. Alec Cameron still seemed to think that maybe 8 Scottish players would make the trip to Leeds, and therefore, some kind of event WILL go ahead.

I'm told that on Friday afternoon there will be a knockout tournament for all players scheduled to play, whilst Saturday will see a trial run of the format for EASB's 'turn pro for a tenner' event next season, to see how it works in practice, before the real thing.

The traditional Saturday evening 9-ball pool knockout will go ahead, and on Sunday there will be a pairs competition with the international players drawn randomly with invited guests.

The EASB is apparently putting up some prize money, but not sure how that will be allocated.

The Scotland vs England billiards tournament will go ahead as scheduled, as all players will apparently be attending.

I'm led to believe that all English players will have been contacted by phone today and letters have been despatched as well.

[Souwester]

EASB website now contains the following statement:


AULD ENEMY CLASH
It is with great regret that at 10.30am on Tuesday 27th July, the SSL Chairman Alec Cameron informed John Hartley that Scotland would not be able to field a full team this weekend at the Auld Enemy Clash, and had to withdraw their side.
Discussions had been taking place for most of the day Monday regarding the amount of players and possible changes to format, but SSL felt that to only send a squad of 7 or 8 players would not do the event justice.

EASB are obviously very disappointed by this decision, and efforts have been ongoing all day to ensure that some sort of event takes place this weekend as planned.

The Billiards side of the International has been completely unaffected, as the Scottish billiard players are still intending to travel, so this will go ahead as planned, and we have also extended the invite to the 7 or 8 Scottish snooker players who had already made arrangements to travel, and we hopeful that they will still attend as planned.

Letters have been sent to all English players and Kelvin Jones has been trying to reach all players by telephone today to inform them of the situation.

What EASB will be doing instead this weekend, is the following:

FRIDAY - 1pm as planned, all players who were taking part in the International will take part in a Knockout competition.
SATURDAY - A warm up event for the forthcoming "Turn pro for a tenner" series. This is open to all amateur players - so why not come along and join in
SUNDAY - The annual random pairs doubles event will take place - again open to players from outside those who were due to take part in the International.

We are still intending to run the 9 ball pool knockout on Saturday evening as planned, and if enough Scottish players do attend, we will run a mini-international during the course of the weekend.

Hopefully, although the English players are going to be disappointed, we can turn this into a great weekend of free snooker for everyone, with prize money for all the events.

http://www.englishsnooker.com/index.php

[jb134]

A shame to see such a fine event cancelled, condolences to John who has worked so hard.

[Frying Scotsman]

Yes John,a real pity and I know John Hartely is pretty broken by it all.Still,it should be a good weekend for the billiards guys!

[Souwester]

Sounds like John's come up with a pretty good alternative weekend's activities!

[GER147]

Never mind, Scotland will be back stronger than EVER next year!

[Souwester]

Yes, but England will still win!

;-)

[GER147]

Maybe so... If there are Russian Refs! :p

But seriously, it will be a closer contest as Scottish Snooker will be UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT!

[Souwester]

But seriously, it will be a closer contest

Time will tell!

[jb134]

Well, well, I see there is a completely nuetral parent on the Scottish Snooker site making the point that the event should never have been arranged as SSL never had the numbers to fulfill the fixture.

What a shame to lead another nation up the garden path in this way.

Still now that the game in this country is under proper stewardship, I hope the event will go from strength to strength as now that the actual snooker players in Scotland can get involved, as a nation hopefully we will be able to compete for the trophy.

[GER147]

Not 'hopefully' JB, Scotland WILL be a force next year!

[bigbreak]

The statement made by Alec Cameron & Stevie Baillie on the first post of that thread on SSL website is a shocking, defamatory rant. They have lost the plot.

[Mr P]

I never actually knew anything about how this event was ran etc.

Can someone explain exactly what it was and what players were supposed to be taking part?

[snakehips]

Well, well, I see there is a completely nuetral parent on the Scottish Snooker site making the point that the event should never have been arranged as SSL never had the numbers to fulfill the fixture.

What a shame to lead another nation up the garden path in this way.

Still now that the game in this country is under proper stewardship, I hope the event will go from strength to strength as now that the actual snooker players in Scotland can get involved, as a nation hopefully we will be able to compete for the trophy.



Thought it would give anyone interested a better insight into the problems the players in Scotland have had to contend with over the years, below is the post jb refers to, a post from a totally neutral parent who just happens to be hugely respected in Scotland (names have been removed)

Having just tried to post a comment upon the SSL website (under ******* login) regarding some of the accusations contained there, I find that along with many others, I am now no longer able to do so. I wonder if ***** is the youngest member ever to be banned??
I have therefore copied my post below as I'm sure that it will be read by at least some of those at whom it is directed!! (I am also annoyed that having spent ages writing it, I can't post it!) Apologies that it is fairly lengthy.

Auld Enemy Clash
I took a decision very early last season not to post comment upon the current situation within Scottish Snooker. I did this firstly because I did not think it was an appropriate use of any website, but also because both ***** and I didn't have the historical experience of many of the members and therefore I did not feel that I could realistically make insightful comment. A final reason is also that my son's only interest was playing snooker, therefore we supported both sets of tournaments (SSl and Caledonian), travelling to U14 and U16 competitions in order that ***** could have the match experience that he requires. As the only parent to have done this, I am now in a fairly strong position to make comment upon some of the accusations regarding tournament organisation, attendance, administration and prizes. I do not intend to enter that argument, however, but wish merely to comment upon Auld Enemy situation as I resent the inference that as a parent, I do not have the intelligence or understanding to make a considered and valid decision regarding my son's participation, or non participation, in this event. (I also resent the presumption that my son is unable to freely evaluate his own position and draw his own conclusions).
It seems to me that no matter how you manipulate the figures, there were never going to be enough players within the junior section of SSL to formulate teams for this event. This fact was evident from the very beginning so to go ahead and arrange the fixture with this knowledge, and to make promises to the junior players regarding their participation was both irresponsible and unrealistic. It is also unfair to then blame others for the event being called off when the junior matches should probably never have been arranged in the first place!
My son would have been both proud and excited to represent his country at this event, and hopefully will earn the opportunity in future. He took the decision himself, after much thought (and no brainwashing) not to participate this year as he felt that there was no pride in playing for a team that was not fully representative of the talent that exists within Scotland. None of the players earned their places, they were merely awarded them for turning up to the tournaments - and I include ***** within this. In fact in some cases, the players were awarded places in the Scottish team after playing in only one event. How can this situation instil pride in the juniors?
In conclusion, I am sorry to have to post these rather lengthy comments as ***** enjoyed all of the competitions he attended last season. I am not prepared to accept repeated accusations, however that I have somehow been brainwashed into behaving in a particular way through propaganda and underhand tactics from "the other side." That accusation is both preposterous and insulting.
I am prepared for this post to be removed as I understand that some may not agree with my comments. They are my comments, however, and therefore equally as valid as any of the others posted above.
*******


Must apologise for beginning of previous post. I have now discovered that my post will be accepted by SSL site - am assuming that something went wrong the last time. Only discovered that it worked whilst showing my husband how it hadn't worked before!! How long it will stay there remains to be seen but don't want to make any false allegations so just wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry!
*******

[jb134]

No reply from the former NGB or their supporters. Nuff said, apologies to the English.

[bkpaul]

The problems in Scottish snooker are not confined there unfortuantely, virtually all amateur snooker bodies are working against each other, each protecting their own little castle whilst amateur snooker goes down the pan.

Funny that, just the same as the pro game (well it was until Barry took over)!!

Its about time national bodies put their nationalities to one side and took the amateur game by the scruff of the neck and dragged it back kicking and screaming if need be to where is should be, as without a viable amateur game there will be no pro game.

There are such simple systems that can be quickly put in place to avoid fiasco's such as this ever happening again, but no, little minded hitlers want to spoil it for everyone and the only people that suffer here is the kids!.

An absolute disgrace!!!!

[bigbreak]

It seems to be all in hand now BKPAUL, Caledonian Snooker Ltd has taken the game in Sotland to a new level in such a short space of time and it will be protected and nurtured like never before.

[SPAWN]

The problems in Scottish snooker are not confined there unfortuantely, virtually all amateur snooker bodies are working against each other, each protecting their own little castle whilst amateur snooker goes down the pan.

An absolute disgrace!!!!

You identify a problem that interests me, as quite frankly I have uncovered no evidence of this at all. To be so far out of touch is worrying. Perhaps you could be good enough to give some examples of amateur snooker bodies working against each other so I can look into it further? Are you suggesting that the failure of Scotland to provide a team was a deliberate move against England?

[bigbreak]

You identify a problem that interests me, as quite frankly I have uncovered no evidence of this at all. To be so far out of touch is worrying. Perhaps you could be good enough to give some examples of amateur snooker bodies working against each other so I can look into it further? Are you suggesting that the failure of Scotland to provide a team was a deliberate move against England?

No he dosn't mean that at all. The former NGB, Scottish Snooker Ltd, were unable to put a team together because they didn't have enough players.

80-90% of the Scottish players are now with Caledonian Snooker Ltd, the new NGB.

www.scottishsnooker.com

[bkpaul]

Spawn,

I didn't imply that at all, what I am saying and have said for a good number of years is there is no cross border cooperation and often no cooperation between competing factions within those borders, there are far too many "I'm the boss" type of people in positions that matter and those people won't embrace changes that are needed. This is also very evident down nationalistic lines, one up manship if you prefer that term.

The is also far too much old school dealing done where the benefit is not necessarily for the players, and all too often is definitely not in the players or snookers best interests.

This can be seen in recent years all the way through snooker top to bottom.

Grass roots snooker however always gets the brunt as they are left virtually to their own devices and as such struggle to provide any sort of organisation.

Bearing in mind that grass roots make up 95%+ of all snooker players just shows what a joke the system really is.

The thing the governing bodies must realize is most of the greatly needed revenue is also in the pockets of those 95%+ players........

On the direct subject of the Auld Enemy clash why doesn't Scotland seem to have a coherent ranking system, and if they do why wasn't it used to produce a team, are they telling us there isn't enough players in Scotland to produce team, I am sure the Scottish players would laugh at that one.

It doesn't matter if the team is made up of players ranked 100 -300 if the players 1-99 have been offered (and rejected) a place in the team, at the end of the day it’s not about who wins its about participation and as such experience for the kids that do play, yes of course it’s also nice to win....

My beef is totally about organization and aces in places, those aces in places should have 1 goal, the promotion and improvement of Amateur Snooker at all levels within their sphere of influence and all levels means from local club through to junior tour & national team level. Where there sphere of influence overlaps with another’s then to liaise fairly and openly with that person to ensure the continued development of the player(s) concerned.

This is the only way petty bickering and downright harmful obstructions can be eradicated from the amateur game....

I think a major step forward (but will never happen) is the formation of a UK governing body with members elected from all the home countries, we would I believe at least get some coherant policies and some worthwhile leadership into the amateur game.

ok I'll shut up now...!

[Souwester]

I think a major step forward (but will never happen) is the formation of a UK governing body with members elected from all the home countries, we would I believe at least get some coherant policies and some worthwhile leadership into the amateur game.

There was a UK Federation in about 2005-06, but I seem to recall that it was the Scottish contingent which withdrew first, leading to its collapse.

[bkpaul]

That's because it was set up wrong fundementally. If a UK body is awarded the status of governing body then anyone withdrawing has nowhere to go and as such its self defeating, thus no one would withdraw...

If you have a UK cooperative body which that seems to have been then there is always the option to pull out and go back to your own countries national body which again seems to be what happened.

Basically countries have to commit for the sake of the players, after all its not about those that run the national bodies its about the players!, something those officials often seem to forget.

[Souwester]

The first step in helping the amateur game, would be for the IBSF to actually support what member nations are trying to do to progress the games, rather than deliberately hindering them.

[bkpaul]

and I was under the impression that the IBF was made up of voting delegates from member countries :eek:

[Souwester]

and I was under the impression that the IBF was made up of voting delegates from member countries :eek:

They give the impression that some of those on the Board have their own agendas.

[bkpaul]

I refer you to my earlier reply, regarding cross border cooperation and one upmanship. :rolleyes:

[bigbreak]

There was a UK Federation in about 2005-06, but I seem to recall that it was the Scottish contingent which withdrew first, leading to its collapse.

That's not true, it was much earlier than that and it was Scotland and WPBSA who led the move. It was Wales who withdrew causing the collapse

[bkpaul]

Doesn't matter when it was or who pulled out, the point I made is it should be "impossible" for anyone to pull out.

Thanks for the correction though.

[bigbreak]

Spawn,

I didn't imply that at all, what I am saying and have said for a good number of years is there is no cross border cooperation and often no cooperation between competing factions within those borders, there are far too many "I'm the boss" type of people in positions that matter and those people won't embrace changes that are needed. This is also very evident down nationalistic lines, one up manship if you prefer that term.

The is also far too much old school dealing done where the benefit is not necessarily for the players, and all too often is definitely not in the players or snookers best interests.

This can be seen in recent years all the way through snooker top to bottom.

Grass roots snooker however always gets the brunt as they are left virtually to their own devices and as such struggle to provide any sort of organisation.

Bearing in mind that grass roots make up 95%+ of all snooker players just shows what a joke the system really is.

The thing the governing bodies must realize is most of the greatly needed revenue is also in the pockets of those 95%+ players........

On the direct subject of the Auld Enemy clash why doesn't Scotland seem to have a coherent ranking system, and if they do why wasn't it used to produce a team, are they telling us there isn't enough players in Scotland to produce team, I am sure the Scottish players would laugh at that one.

It doesn't matter if the team is made up of players ranked 100 -300 if the players 1-99 have been offered (and rejected) a place in the team, at the end of the day it’s not about who wins its about participation and as such experience for the kids that do play, yes of course it’s also nice to win....

My beef is totally about organization and aces in places, those aces in places should have 1 goal, the promotion and improvement of Amateur Snooker at all levels within their sphere of influence and all levels means from local club through to junior tour & national team level. Where there sphere of influence overlaps with another’s then to liaise fairly and openly with that person to ensure the continued development of the player(s) concerned.

This is the only way petty bickering and downright harmful obstructions can be eradicated from the amateur game....

I think a major step forward (but will never happen) is the formation of a UK governing body with members elected from all the home countries, we would I believe at least get some coherant policies and some worthwhile leadership into the amateur game.

ok I'll shut up now...!

With all due respect, that wasn't the problem. You need to research the subject before commenting

[bkpaul]

It was if you think about it, even if a lot of players went elsewhere then there was still players who could have played, ok not the best players but that wasn't the issue.

Politics plays far too much snooker!.

[Souwester]

That's not true, it was much earlier than that and it was Scotland and WPBSA who led the move. It was Wales who withdrew causing the collapse

I beg to differ: there was a Federation in place (albeit not very long established) when I first took an interest in national snooker in summer 2006. I may possibly be wrong about Scotland though.

[bigbreak]

It was if you think about it, even if a lot of players went elsewhere then there was still players who could have played, ok not the best players but that wasn't the issue.

Politics plays far too much snooker!.

No it wasn't, and if you don't know you can't comment.

Scottish Snooker Ltd didn't have enough players left!

And....it has nothing to do with politics in the game

[bigbreak]

I beg to differ: there was a Federation in place (albeit not very long established) when I first took an interest in national snooker in summer 2006. I may possibly be wrong about Scotland though.

You can beg to differ all you like but you were wrong. And if you "may possibly be wrong about Scotland" then don't make the statement without being sure!:)

[SPAWN]

That's not true, it was much earlier than that and it was Scotland and WPBSA who led the move. It was Wales who withdrew causing the collapse

Ah yes, the UK Snooker and Billiards Federation. Now those were the days. It was formed by World Snooker when that organisation was run by the real Prince of Darkness.

Founded in 2004 on promises of cash from Sport England and UK Sport rather than any real plan of what the organisation could do to further the amateur game. They even wheeled out SRW to say he was going to unlock a £20,000 pot which Sport England reputedly had ear-marked for the English game, and get additional funding from his pals at UK Sport.

When the four parties still showed reluctance, the PoD threw in the tempter that the new Federation could take over PIOS (or the Open Tour, as it was then known) with up to 16 main tour places. Whether this was ever seriously meant can never be known for sure, but needless to say it didn't happen.

So it's no surprise that in 2006 the organisation fell apart. The collapse can hardly be blamed on Wales, as by now all members were as keen as each other to get out. They had received no funding, no recognition, no benefits were seen by any member, and they had no plans to do anything to change the situation. The truth is that the concept had been flawed from the start, and whatever the motives of World Snooker in putting this together, they did it with usual crassness and incompetence. Money, rather than any benefits to the game, being at the centre of everything they did at that time.

This may seem to prove the point of Paul of Knottingley, but I personally think that times have changed, especially in England, and perhaps in Scotland also, but this has still to be seen.

No point in moaning about things past as if they were still going on. Let's give some credit when improvements are made.