Ball droping in while at the table? [Archive]

cazmac1

2nd February 2011, 08:19 PM

I was playing snooker last sunday and my opponent left the red on the lip of the pocket, I was cuing up to pot the ball and was just about to hit the white when it droped in. I think I read that the rule has been changed but haven't a clue as to what. Does anyone know the rule.

finabb

2nd February 2011, 08:29 PM

I was playing snooker last sunday and my opponent left the red on the lip of the pocket, I was cuing up to pot the ball and was just about to hit the white when it droped in. I think I read that the rule has been changed but haven't a clue as to what. Does anyone know the rule.

Replace the red back on the table from where it fell in

cazmac1

2nd February 2011, 08:39 PM

Thats what i thought, but my opponent was saying something about a 4 second rule. In the end we left the red in and I continued but with me playing a different red. what was the old rule?
Thanks for the info Finabb

DawRef

2nd February 2011, 10:00 PM

Section 3 Rule 9

(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.
(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.
(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Examples of each part with a red (or any ball) hanging on the edge of a pocket

Example of (a)
Ball on edge of pocket, your opponent has left the table. As you approach the table, the ball falls in. It is replaced and you continue your turn. No penalty.

Example of b(i)
You have pocketed a red and are playing the blue. As you pot the blue, the red drops (it does not get hit by any other ball). ALL balls are replaced and you play the stroke again, or a different stroke of your choice. No penalty.

Example of b(ii)
You have pocketed a red and are playing the blue. You touch another ball with your sleeve. At the same time, the red drops. You incur a penalty of 5 points, all balls are replaced and your opponent has the usual options after a foul.

Part (c) has been debated as to how long 'momentarily on the edge' is. As a referee, I would take it as if, in my opinion, the player had finished his stroke and left the table and the ball falls in, I would replace it.

There is no '4 second rule'. I hope this clears up your question.

cazmac1

2nd February 2011, 10:33 PM

Thanks dawref, Fully understood.:)

Bigmeek

7th February 2011, 01:18 PM

Thats what i thought, but my opponent was saying something about a 4 second rule. In the end we left the red in and I continued but with me playing a different red. what was the old rule?
Thanks for the info Finabb
Happened to me last night. Black fell in whilst I was at the table. Foul seven away somebody shouted! I was pretty sure I was clear on the rules and stood my ground. Only bit I got wrong was that my opponnent re-spotted the black instead of putting it back over the pocket.

Bigmeek

7th February 2011, 07:07 PM

Assume if I try to pot a ball and leave it hanging over the pocket and then bang the table in disgust which makes the ball fall its a foul and a warning for ungentlemanly conduct?

The Statman

7th February 2011, 07:53 PM

Section 3 Rule 9

(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.
(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.

... Examples of each part with a red (or any ball) hanging on the edge of a pocket

... Example of b(i)
You have pocketed a red and are playing the blue. As you pot the blue, the red drops (it does not get hit by any other ball). ALL balls are replaced and you play the stroke again, or a different stroke of your choice. No penalty.

...I'm not sure that you've got that right, DawRef.

In your example, surely the fact that no ball would have interfered with the red, means that the red would simply be replaced and the shot would be allowed to stand.

Only if the red would have been hit by a ball during the stroke, would the balls be replaced and the same striker replay the shot of his choice?

DawRef

7th February 2011, 08:47 PM

Yes Statman. Error on my part. Should have added that if after the red had dropped the cue-ball then falls in the same pocket (without hitting the red) then all balls are replaced and the shot played again.

Assume if I try to pot a ball and leave it hanging over the pocket and then bang the table in disgust which makes the ball fall its a foul and a warning for ungentlemanly conduct?

Yes.

Souwester

7th February 2011, 11:14 PM

Assume if I try to pot a ball and leave it hanging over the pocket and then bang the table in disgust which makes the ball fall its a foul and a warning for ungentlemanly conduct?

Yes.

I'm not sure how you can foul the player. What infringement of the rules is there?

I would agree, though, that the player should be warned for ungentlemanly conduct.

cazmac1

9th February 2011, 06:13 PM

I agree, It would be very difficult for the ref to make that call.

The Statman

9th February 2011, 07:28 PM

I'm not sure how you can foul the player. What infringement of the rules is there?

I would agree, though, that the player should be warned for ungentlemanly conduct.I agree. The fact that the bang happened to knock a red, which was right on the edge, into the pocket has no bearing on the ungentlemanly conduct.

If you wouldn't have warned him if the red had stayed up, then why would you warn him just because it was close enough to fall in? Equally, if you would have warned him if the red had stayed up, you still do.

Souwester

9th February 2011, 09:24 PM

Conduct such as banging a table, thumping a cue on the floor etc really is frowned upon these days, and should result in a formal warning. In this case, if the table has been thumped hard enough to make the red drop, then there's no doubt that a warning should be given.

The Statman

10th February 2011, 10:37 AM

Conduct such as banging a table, thumping a cue on the floor etc really is frowned upon these days, and should result in a formal warning. In this case, if the table has been thumped hard enough to make the red drop, then there's no doubt that a warning should be given.I'm not sure that I agree unequivocally with your last sentence, given that we are talking about some scenarios where a red drops seemingly without any knocking at all.

DawRef

10th February 2011, 10:27 PM

I'm not sure how you can foul the player. What infringement of the rules is there?

For a ball to be legally potted, it has to have been hit by the cue-ball (or another ball that is or could be on, e.g one red hitting another or free ball hitting the ball on). I would think that by hitting the table you have not legally struck the object ball, hence calling the foul.

Souwester

10th February 2011, 11:06 PM

If the player is still at the table one might be able to argue that it dropped as a result of his last stroke, and therefore a valid pot. The referee must decide if it dropped because of the thump on the table, but personally this is one occasion when I wouldn't give the player the benefit of the doubt, and would replace the red, warn the player who thumped the table, and let the opponent take the next shot.

If the referee considered that all balls had come to rest and the player was up off his shot, then at what point is he the non-striker, who cannot be penalised?

The Statman

11th February 2011, 12:11 AM

Of course we are assuming it is a red and that the next shot is the other player's. He may have potted a red and be thumping the table because the second red stayed over the pocket spoiling his pot at a colour.

In this case, the thump on the table becomes a bit more complicated because he is still the striker.

Nevertheless, I agree with Souwester that a foul cannot be caused. It is still the ball being 'moved by other than striker' even though it is paradoxically the striker that has caused the "other" occurrence that has caused the red to drop.

dean0

5th May 2011, 10:21 AM

Can anybody help me with some specifics on this?

I was playing last night, I took the black on into the bottom right pocket (yellow pocket) . The ball sat over the pocket (I honestly do not know how it didn't drop it was literally right over the bag). Anyway, some time later, With only the colours remaining my oponent pots the blue into the top right pocket and the black dropped in. My oppenent definatly did not touch the black.

As far as I can make out, the balls should of been replaced, i.e put back in their last position , not respotted. Is this correct?

If so how would I replace this black? It was impossible to get it to go back into the same position without it falling into the pocket. I tried loads of times and it just fell in. I don't know why gravity took so long to take over in the first instance but replacing the ball into it's former position was impossible as it just dropped into the pocket over and over.

Can anybody clarify what to do in this situation? Or if the balls are to be respotted and not "replaced" if you get me.

Thanks
Dean

Souwester

5th May 2011, 10:42 AM

Yes, the ball must be replaced to where it was, if it dropped into a pocket without being touched by another ball. It's always difficult though when you're trying to replace the ball, and you just have to get as close as you can to avoid it falling.

I guess the problem might be if there was another ball in front of the one that fell, and the ball can't be replaced because it is obstructed...

dean0

5th May 2011, 10:59 AM

Yes, the ball must be replaced to where it was, if it dropped into a pocket without being touched by another ball. It's always difficult though when you're trying to replace the ball, and you just have to get as close as you can to avoid it falling.

I guess the problem might be if there was another ball in front of the one that fell, and the ball can't be replaced because it is obstructed...
Cheers for the help, there was no obstruction, I remeber looking at the black before it dropped and thinking, why is that still on the table. So when I went to replace it I knew exactly where it was , there was no way I could get it back into the same position, but as close as possible seems resonable to me.

Thanks again

Dean

Souwester

5th May 2011, 10:59 AM

I meant to quote the 'Ball on Edge of pocket' rule in my last post:

 9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any [I]stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.

(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a [I]stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same [I]stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Of course section (c) leads to a debate about just how long is momentarily?

dean0

5th May 2011, 11:15 AM

I meant to quote the 'Ball on Edge of pocket' rule in my last post:

 9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any [I]stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.

(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a [I]stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same [I]stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Of course section (c) leads to a debate about just how long is momentarily?
I read this at the start of the thread which was what prompted my previous question.

I understand the debate on what is a "moment" it had been about 5 mins before the ball was played and it dropped.

I would presume my scenrio falls into catagory (a). There was a stroke in progress but the black ball (that dropped) was not involved in the stroke and therefore is put back and the break continues .

Thanks

Deano

Bigmeek

5th May 2011, 11:41 AM

I read this at the start of the thread which was what prompted my previous question.

I understand the debate on what is a "moment" it had been about 5 mins before the ball was played and it dropped.

I would presume my scenrio falls into catagory (a). There was a stroke in progress but the black ball (that dropped) was not involved in the stroke and therefore is put back and the break continues .

Thanks

Deano
a) is correct Deano. There's no definition of what is a "moment" but its measured in seconds rather than minutes. If the black drops when the white has stopped and the striker has left the table then it gets replaced.

dean0

5th May 2011, 11:47 AM

The black dropped as the white was traveling down the table and my oppenent was still down on his shot.

The black was put over the pocket (instead of into it) by myself about 4 mins previously

The Statman

12th May 2011, 12:55 PM

I meant to quote the 'Ball on Edge of pocket' rule in my last post:

 9. Ball on Edge of Pocket
(a) If a ball falls into a pocket without being hit by another ball, and being no part of any [I]stroke in progress, it shall be replaced and any points scored shall count.

(b) If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a [I]stroke:
(i) with no infringement of these Rules, all balls will be replaced and the same [I]stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker.
(ii) if a foul is committed, the striker incurs the penalty prescribed, all balls will be replaced and the next player has the usual options after a foul.

(c) If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced.

Of course section (c) leads to a debate about just how long is momentarily?I refereed our league pairs final last night and there was an instance of a red trikcling towards the pocket and dropping after 2, maybe 3 seconds of apparently being at a standstill. I allowed it to count.

I have had a few of these crop up in my time - and on almost all occasions I have been able to 'sense' that the ball is going to drop, or isn't, and I have never been wrong! I don't know exactly what it is - a bit like the instinct of knowing where to hit the cue-ball for the required amount of straight before swerve takes effect; it's just experience and feel.

In the end, with seriously borderline instances, you just have to make a call and be comfortable that you can justify it or stick to it if questioned by the player who feels hard done by.