Big pockets

[cazmac1]

Is it just me or are the pockets i.n this years UK like buckets. They seem to be going in off both knuckles. This table is not as tight as the table I play on at my club.

[Inoffthered]

I think the players are THAT good. Also, the tv camera angles can make them look bigger.

[snooks1000]

I've always thought pro pockets play fairly generous if the balls dropped dead weight at em.Thats my experience anyway, which is why i find Judds style of play amazing, the speed he pots balls at consistently

[neil taperell]

The camera angle is deceiving in my opinion . I believe they are that good with the pace of the ball as well .

Trust me Peter , the pockets are tight . When you get down to meet me next i will give you a game on The Star Table....tight :eek:

[tornado taylor]

I'm convinced they are not set all the same in every tournament i've seen some balls brush the side rail and still go in off the angle wouldn't do that on some club tables i've played on. Probably still not big enough for me though lol

[Deepscrew]

Some do go in when for all the world they look like they should stay out.

One thing i noticed is club tables the cushions are cut into the pockets at quite an angle. THis means that if its hits the knuckle it srpings back at quite an angle and can stay out.

I played on a proper match table (albeit it an old BCE steel block one) last week and the cushions seem to slope in to the pocket gradually which helps the balls go in as the balls dont bounce at such an angle. The actual wideness of the pocket however is tighter than normal tables.

Prehaps Geoff Large et al could comment on the cut of the rubbers into the pockets.


I saw some balls stay out last night that looked in for all the world. They are tight bags for sure.

[The Statman]

I'm convinced they are not set all the same in every tournament i've seen some balls brush the side rail and still go in off the angle wouldn't do that on some club tables i've played on. Probably still not big enough for me though lolI think they are probably cut the same in every tournament but there are other factors which affect the performance of the pocket.

Humidity and anything else which affects the speed of the table will make a difference, especially when a ball approaches the pocket at a slow speed. The exact fineness of the cloth is another factor.

Nevertheless, I'm sure the television camera does exaggerate things. Except for the very borderline ones which drop after a lot of wobbling, players never seem to be in any doubt that a ball is going in. It is usually balls approaching the pocket from roughly a 45º angle which are the ones that look odd, and of course more leeway is available from the open table.

[tornado taylor]

Yeah I can see what your saying and I agree.. I've seen alot of massive bounces off the cushions where they've come off twice as fast as they've hit and sliding off the cushions. Its like kicks I suppose you can never guarantee 100% perfect playing conditions.

[The Statman]

The other thing of course is that, with faster cloths, the player's playing habit changes. If it is seldom necessary to hit balls hard, then a greater percentage of shots will be played softly, which means of course that they are more likely to slide in.

At a club, you will get the impression that a lot of your balls stay out so the pockets must be smaller; the reality could be that you tend to hit balls harder, and that gives less leeway for the slightly off-aimed shot.

[Deepscrew]

agree with that. They seldom have to hit balls hard as they can just brush the white around the angles so easily.

[Terry Davidson]

One huge difference is the pros are always playing on brand new cloths where the balls will slide easier into the pockets. Those of us who play in clubs can only get this experience on the day the tables are re-clothed but believe me it makes a huge difference as to how tight the pockets seem.

Those of you that have access to a Star table or even a BCE/Riley tournament table where the cloth has been on for a little while will find those tables will play very tight however as has been said I would think the tables at each pro tournament are set up CLOSE to the standard every time but there will be very minor differences

Terry

[CoachGavin]

Must admit I think they are playing slightly easier this tournament as I have thought a few have missed only to see them go in. Matthew Stevens thought he had missed a pot yesterday and looked as surprised as anyone when it dropped. People say that the camera angles make it look different but dont forget the camera angles are the same each tournament so that is not a variable.

[The Statman]

Yes true, but I was thinking camera angle versus one's own experience at the club.

Having said that, some production companies do have different approaches and have the cameras sited differently - a camera very close (such as has to be the case at the Crucible due to lack of space) with a wide angle will give a different impression from that of a camera sited further back but zoomed in more.

[missneworleans]

the tables in proffessional tournaments are way better than in our clubs...if pros would play on our tables, the standart wont be any close to what it is now
btw very many kicks in this tournament aswell...

[Gerry Armstrong]

the tables in proffessional tournaments are way better than in our clubs...if pros would play on our tables, the standart wont be any close to what it is now
btw very many kicks in this tournament aswell...

John Higgins was in our club for a visit very recently and while there played 3 frames against one of our up and coming young players who has already been in the final of the European Under 19's, has played in a number of international events for Scotland over the last few years, has had a 147 in a practice match, plays as an amateur in the PTC's etc. so is quite a handy player.

John made 3 consecutive centuries, never missed a ball.

[missneworleans]

John Higgins was in our club for a visit very recently and while there played 3 frames against one of our up and coming young players who has already been in the final of the European Under 19's, has played in a number of international events for Scotland over the last few years, has had a 147 in a practice match, plays as an amateur in the PTC's etc. so is quite a handy player.

John made 3 consecutive centuries, never missed a ball.
thats scottish club+ no pressure:D
i mean in my club if you roll ball along the cushion, if it catches the jaw, never will go in, on any pace

[magicman]

On the contrary, as anyone knows when they've seen pro's play exhibitions at snooker clubs. They knock in centuries after centuries and often maximums.

I think the reasons are, as Terry said, the 'slippiness' of a new cloth, the optical illusion of the pocket cameras and people's inability to comprehend just exactly how good these guys really are!

[DeeZiZ]

Of course TV tables will always have more generous pockets.
Remember the infamous black by Dale in Australia earlier this season. Can't believe that dropped.
Also, I played myself and had several people I know play on the PTC tv table, and yes, they are tremendous.
We just sucked.

So sick of Dennis Taylor every time he has the opportunity to mention 'how tight these pockets are'. Just STFU Dennis.

[Gerry Armstrong]

thats scottish club+ no pressure:D
i mean in my club if you roll ball along the cushion, if it catches the jaw, never will go in, on any pace

I'm sure he'd be more than capable of 3 consecutive tons in your club too as would almost all of the top pros.

[missneworleans]

I'm sure he'd be more than capable of 3 consecutive tons in your club too as would almost all of the top pros.
you havent been there ...
i'm not understating players, but pockets are way more generous, thats true for sure

[Deepscrew]

If anyone thinks the middle pockets on the Star tables are anything like as generous as club tables they are quite clearly on some mind altering substances.

The players are just THAT good.

[missneworleans]

cmon its obvious that those pockets are way more generous than in clubs...no camera trick, some balls i have seen going down never would drop in my club
the cloth is newer and gets brushed in intervals..
stilll i'm not understating players....

[Gerry Armstrong]

you havent been there ...
i'm not understating players, but pockets are way more generous, thats true for sure

They're not, but don't let facts get in the way of your argument.

[cazmac1]

Couple of things I'd like to add
1. Not all club tables are the same so we can't know for sure how tight a table is at any given club so if someone says it's tight we should accept that and not just put it down to them not being as good as a pro ( although this is certainly true).
2. With regards to camera angles when they play a long red into the yellow pocket the camera gives a near to a players view as you can get and you see the ball hit the extreme right of the pocket with plenty of daylight to the left and the pocket still sucks the ball in.
I can only repeat what I said earlier them balls would not go in on my table. One final point is that I have never played a bad game on a match cut table and would say that my form is actually better. So for me the facts speak for them selves.
PS
Neil can't wait to get on that star table.

[cally]

You'll see how tight these stars play setup to WPBSA specs then bud, they are tight man, dont be fooled...;)

Try a few shots across the back rail, phew.. killers they are...:)

[nrage]

Couple of things I'd like to add
1. Not all club tables are the same so we can't know for sure how tight a table is at any given club so if someone says it's tight we should accept that and not just put it down to them not being as good as a pro ( although this is certainly true).
2. With regards to camera angles when they play a long red into the yellow pocket the camera gives a near to a players view as you can get and you see the ball hit the extreme right of the pocket with plenty of daylight to the left and the pocket still sucks the ball in.
I can only repeat what I said earlier them balls would not go in on my table. One final point is that I have never played a bad game on a match cut table and would say that my form is actually better. So for me the facts speak for them selves.
PS
Neil can't wait to get on that star table.

#1 You're dead right. And Frames has a star table and a 100 year old table (was it a brunswich anniversary table Neil?), which Neil tells me has tighter pockets than the star table.

#2 You would expect the pocket to accept a pot hitting the right of this pocket, but not the left (near jaw). The amount of daylight is the only factor really. At slower speeds you'd expect to pot with more daylight, than at faster speeds. I can't recall seeing an example of one which I would not have expected to pot.. there were a few to the black pockets which looked very borderline to me, and they wobbled and I was a bit surprised they dropped, but TBH they would have dropped at that pace on all the tables I've played on.

I find I play better on the tighter tables too, but perhaps that is because they are also more consistent in speed, bounce, etc and with a thinner cloth you get less roll off. If the cloth is faster, you can hit softer and we're all more accurate at lower speeds. Also, knowing the pockets are tighter makes us play more carefully, and concentrate more. If we approached every shot on every table like that I reckon we'd be even better on the loose pocketed tables.

It would be good to meet/see you down at Frames and maybe play a frame to two :)

[cazmac1]

Hi nrage, when I come down to frames I'll bring my video cam and i'll film the session.:eek:

[tornado taylor]

Another good point from cazmac. Club tables vary so much. I play on an old billiard table and the worst thing about that is, when the ball is in the jaw of the pocket your bridge hand is virtually on the cue ball and the same for a shot off the rail where a proper match table has wider rails and more room to cue. Still a nice table to play on though and its cheap at 2 pound an hour.

[nrage]

Hi nrage, when I come down to frames I'll bring my video cam and i'll film the session.:eek:

Good idea :p

[sunny3909]

One of the clubs where I play regularly has got 3 star tables,the center pockets are tight,when the cloth was new the shots along the cushion were a bit easy but after 3 months the pockets don't seem that generous for these kind of shot.
It must be something to do with the fineness of the cloth as Terry mentioned.

[Manu147]

Find it quite amusing that all these players that claim to be better players on tight tables because they concentrate better, keep kidding yourselves, if you cant hit regular centuries on club tables regardless of slower speed rolls ,etc, u certainly wont be doin in on star tables!

[nrage]

Find it quite amusing that all these players that claim to be better players on tight tables because they concentrate better, keep kidding yourselves, if you cant hit regular centuries on club tables regardless of slower speed rolls ,etc, u certainly wont be doin in on star tables!

Are you saying people don't play better when they concentrate better/more?

No-one is saying they could make a century on a star table, but not a club table, where did you get that idea?

[hotpot]

I,ve played on the star tables in Gloucester ant yes they are tight but there are a lot tighter tables around in our league in the old workingmens clubs .

[Manu147]

The point would be that believing beacause the pockets are bigger ur concentration isnt as good as tight tables, im saying that players of a certain standard dont become better players on tighter tables, if un cant concentrate on a snooker table regardless of pocket size then the tables are not the issuse.

[nrage]

The point would be that believing beacause the pockets are bigger ur concentration isnt as good as tight tables,

You've got it backwards. On a tight table, which I play on far less frequently, I concentrate more because:
1. It's a rare occasion, so I don't get blase about it.
2. The table is tighter so I know I need to be more accurate.

In contrast I play more on club tables, and on less serious occasions (practice, frame with mates, etc) so I concentrate less well and play less well as a result.

It's not a 'belief' it's a measurable fact given my own personal results. About all anyone could argue is that I don't have enough results on better tables to make a fair comparison. But, there is a trend, and that's what we're talking about here.


im saying that players of a certain standard dont become better players on tighter tables

No-one is saying that they "become better players" on tighter tables. They're saying they "have played better" or "have better results" on tighter tables.


if un cant concentrate on a snooker table regardless of pocket size then the tables are not the issuse.

Sure, perfectly true, but also irrelevant to the point being made. Everyone can concentrate to some degree, and everyone can make an effort to concentrate more on certain occasions. On those occasions we have better results, which stands to reason.

[cazmac1]

Find it quite amusing that all these players that claim to be better players on tight tables because they concentrate better, keep kidding yourselves, if you cant hit regular centuries on club tables regardless of slower speed rolls ,etc, u certainly wont be doin in on star tables!

It is a fact that I have play better on match tables this might come down to a number of factors cloth/table being true etc. this has nothing to do with century breaks. The last time I played on match cut tables in a comp I had an 83 and and 54 in two matches best of three. Be amused all you like.

[Manu147]

Might observation is still the same, nrage if you read my post correctly and understand the game you would understand the point i was making, you wont be producing a higher level of snooker on a tighter table as your level of accuracy does not increase, any technical flaws will only be highlighted, hence a top amateur might trouble a pro to a greater extent on a club table, than on a star table where the better cueist in accuracy more than not will dominate, and cazmaz anybody who changes his cue everyday i just cant take u seriously!

[cazmac1]

Same back at you:p. To be honest I don't think you know any thing about snooker.
I thought the whole point of the tread was that the pocket on this pro table take the ball better than my club table suggesting that the pockets are bigger than my club table, but you have turned it round to say that were saying we play better on a tighter table which is not what has been said.

[cally]

He might know a bit, the 147 implies at least...;)

I have played on a riley arisotcrat in a club that was way tighter than the stars tbf. but not many have been.

[tornado taylor]

I always find the tight ones can take some workin to get in but if you keep at it sure enough the sides will take it in nicely. Most round here are like buckets.... Just falls in

[cally]

I always find the tight ones can take some workin to get in but if you keep at it sure enough the sides will take it in nicely. Most round here are like buckets.... Just falls in

PMSL......:):):):):):):):)

Nice one...:)

[cazmac1]

He might know a bit, the 147 implies at least...;)

I have played on a riley arisotcrat in a club that was way tighter than the stars tbf. but not many have been.
The guy might be able to make a 147 but he's posted on to this thread which was going along nicely with some valid comments before making it personal by attacking me. I have been playing for 30 years in that time I've played on all sorts of tables and although I haven't made a 147 think a know a few things about the game and as such am entitled to have an opinion just the same as any one else. The fact that he brought my cue changing into an argument tells me the guy ain't that bright anyhow. Now let me think who else changing his cue often, OH Ronnie O'Sullivan, he might be right I could never take Ronnie seriously either.
Manu 147 lol

[cally]

I wouldn't say he attacked you caz. you are awfully touchy aye fella...

And i thought i bit easily...:)


Take it ez man, 'tis the season to be jolly, tra la la la la, la la la, laaaaaaaaaaa...;)


Peace out...:)

[cazmac1]

There is an under lining tone to his reply s that makes him sound like a big headed pr** what the hell has my cue to do with the thread his remarks were intended to be little me he can shove it where the sun don't shine.

[cazmac1]

I'm also interested to know someone with 30+ posts seems to know so much about me. Who is this guy and how many other names does he go by. Maybe barca155. lol

[nrage]

Might observation is still the same, nrage if you read my post correctly and understand the game you would understand the point i was making

I understand what you're saying, and your point is perfectly valid, as it stands, by itself, however it's just not relevant to the comments I (we) made because you're talking about something slightly different, that's what I'm trying to tell you. You're either miss-understanding what we're trying to say, or you just want to say something else - which is fine. I just wanted to clarify that I (we) were not saying, what you're suggesting we're saying. In short, you've erected a strawman, and you're bashing it .. but we're not even in the same field .. so you're pertty much bashing away all by yourself.

[nrage]

There is an under lining tone to his reply s that makes him sound like a big headed pr** what the hell has my cue to do with the thread his remarks were intended to be little me he can shove it where the sun don't shine.

I didn't like the tone either, but I don't think he was attacking you/me. I think he just miss understood what we were saying. There is no doubt he can play the game (I have it from Terry who gave him some coaching around the time I had some) but he's missing the point in this case IMO.

[cazmac1]

maybe my reply's have been a bit OTT so for that I apologize but I do think the guy should give some more thought to what he is saying before posting. He could have made his point with referring to me or my cue.
As far as I'm concerned the matter is closed.

[culraven]

i love these little cat fights, think we should start a roast forum for us all to let off a little steam, any volunteers to go first?

[cazmac1]

I thought I just put out that fire and you want to start it again. lol

[culraven]

my wife turned the snooker off so i have to entertain myself some how?

[cazmac1]

Been there done that.

[Manu147]

I am here to apologise for bein a decent snooker player, and for denting any obvious egos!

[PatBlock]

my wife turned the snooker off so i have to entertain myself some how?

You could spend the time looking for a decent divorce lawyer.:p

-

[culraven]

bit harsh, she's let me put it back on now she's gone to make my tea so i can't complain too much!

[gem]

I think the tables look to be very tight. You can see when the ball sits in the jaw and there is not much room either side.
I have played in some really old tables over the years and one that I play on just now is very tight up the cushion.

I think the main problem with many of the older club tables is how the cushions are cut into the corners. The one I play on just now is almost impossible to pot up the rail with any pace as the cut is not as rounded as the Star tables. This tends to push the ball away when it hits it rather than gather the ball. Straight on they are fine and measure around the same width opening as the template that was going around the forum a while ago but it is not as rounded.

I think this is what gives the impression that these are a bit generous when they are actually quite narrow.

[Deepscrew]

I beleive the same Gem. The cut of the cushions is the main thing thats different to most tables us minions play on.

[cazmac1]

I think the tables look to be very tight. You can see when the ball sits in the jaw and there is not much room either side.
I have played in some really old tables over the years and one that I play on just now is very tight up the cushion.

I think the main problem with many of the older club tables is how the cushions are cut into the corners. The one I play on just now is almost impossible to pot up the rail with any pace as the cut is not as rounded as the Star tables. This tends to push the ball away when it hits it rather than gather the ball. Straight on they are fine and measure around the same width opening as the template that was going around the forum a while ago but it is not as rounded.

I think this is what gives the impression that these are a bit generous when they are actually quite narrow.
I think this is a good assessment of what is going on and echo's what other poster have put up. This is my view too the shape the pocket plus the slide of the new cloth means if you get the ball in the jaws of the pocket at a reasonable speed the ball is drawn in unlike most club tables where the ball gets trapped in the under cut and this causes the ball to move sideways or backwards.
In all the years I've been playing snooker I've never understood the idea of the under cut of the pocket because it just don't work. If you want to make the pocket bigger on a club table why can't the opening on the rail be designed bigger to allow a normal shaped pocket?

[gb147]

hi the main problem is the pocket design and shape /slate fall /pocket plate type will be very differant to the untrained eye when comparing a modern match table to a 40/100 year old club table when i fitted tables for thurstons/rileys i used to describe it as comparing a mki escort to a modeo most club tables have a pocket opening of 3 5/8 th across the fall sometimes even bigger
pro tables have an opening of 3 3/8th the big differance is pro pockets stay same opening from fall to pocket plate
old tables tend to go narrower from front to back , hope this helps people understand a bit

[cazmac1]

hi the main problem is the pocket design and shape /slate fall /pocket plate type will be very differant to the untrained eye when comparing a modern match table to a 40/100 year old club table when i fitted tables for thurstons/rileys i used to describe it as comparing a mki escort to a modeo most club tables have a pocket opening of 3 5/8 th across the fall sometimes even bigger
pro tables have an opening of 3 3/8th the big differance is pro pockets stay same opening from fall to pocket plate
old tables tend to go narrower from front to back , hope this helps people understand a bit

I sort of know what your saying but I have to ask iyo do match table pockets take the ball better than a club table with a similar size pocket

[cazmac1]

is it me or did that red ricky waldren potted along the back cush hit the cushion before going in ?????

[montoya10]

is it me or did that red ricky waldren potted along the back cush hit the cushion before going in ?????

It definitely did.

[Deepscrew]

It did, thats what make people think these pockets are big. Its the cut of the cushion, its odd, id prefer to see those stay out.

[nevets]

is it me or did that red ricky waldren potted along the back cush hit the cushion before going in ?????

Only about a foot before the pocket! Looked like a pot on a US pool table. Don't know how the pink before it went in either.

[gb147]

also cushion capping widths on some old tables are a lot narrower than a pro cushion thus the front inside edge of pocketplate distance to fall on slate is less this tends to make a ball often jump ot back on to surface ,
tables in social clubs tend to be made by lots of differant makers going back many years with no set standard shape to plates openings /falls on slate it was only in the early 80s that tables started to be standardised

[gb147]

i suspect the end slate has been set slightly low to end rail this was often done to make balls hold the cushion ,
ex riley fitter who dont rate chinese table

[cazmac1]

To be honest I think if you took the pressure factor out of the game they would make a mockery of these tables. If the pockets were really tight it would make very poor viewing. Still would separate the men from the boys which at the moment it's a bit of a free for all.

[cazmac1]

i suspect the end slate has been set slightly low to end rail this was often done to make balls hold the cushion ,
ex riley fitter who dont rate chinese table
You seem to know your stuff