John Parris Cues

[JParrott1]

I'm sure a few of you have heard of the legendary John Parris and his fine cues. I believe this this where all the top pros go to buy cues and/or get their cues altered or repaired.


I would like to know which cue any of you would chose, personally, I love the look of the SUPERIOR, tell me what you think...........


http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/home.html

[ADR147]

I'm sure a few of you have heard of the legendary John Parris and his fine cues. I believe this this where all the top pros go to buy cues and/or get their cues altered or repaired.


I would like to know which cue any of you would chose, personally, I love the look of the SUPERIOR, tell me what you think...........


http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/home.html

oh dear god please no - not this again - firstly not all the pros use parris cues this is an urban myth, in fact right now only one player in the top 16 does. secondly parris cues are fine if you get a good one, they are just too expensive for what they are. there are plenty of other makers at least as good, try looking up Trevor White, Andy Bream, Mike Wooldridge, Robert Osbourne, Tony Glover, Craftsman cues, Mastercue, Martin Chesworth, Tony Ions, O'min, Stamford cue makers, Peradon, Andy Gibb, and Kevin Deroo.

[Erwan_BZH]

I'm sure a few of you have heard of the legendary John Parris and his fine cues. I believe this this where all the top pros go to buy cues and/or get their cues altered or repaired.


I would like to know which cue any of you would chose, personally, I love the look of the SUPERIOR, tell me what you think...........


http://www.parris-cues.co.uk/home.html

Honnestly, you can have better cues, or at least equivalent quality, elsewhere, and for a lot less money!!
In my humble opinion, John Parris makes good cues but when you purchase one, you pay the name, more than the quality itself. Many friends of mine bought Parris cues, with divers fortunes. Amongst them, at least 2 or 3 were damaged after a few years of use.
As for the Superior, I can tell you it's a lovely cue. A friend of mine have one, and the butt is really well made. It's sober but you have a touch of originallity with the four olivewood flames. Too bad the shaft was sh*t...

If I were you (and admitting you are ready to pay the price for a cue), I'd go to Stamford, as they have 2 or 3 similar models to the Superior. You can email them and ask for their price list.

[ADR147]

in fact go for anyone on my list!

[Watford]

You missed Kev Muncaster Northwest Cues (who made John Higgins new cue), Robin Cues and Coutts Cues but otherwise dead right!
If you've got Parris money to spend talk to Trevor White (Trevs1 on the forum) he made Maguires new cue (among others) as well as mine and a few other people on here will tell you he is better on price and quality than Parris!

[ADR147]

You missed Kev Muncaster Northwest Cues (who made John Higgins new cue), Robin Cues and Coutts Cues but otherwise dead right!
If you've got Parris money to spend talk to Trevor White (Trevs1 on the forum) he made Maguires new cue (among others) as well as mine and a few other people on here will tell you he is better on price and quality than Parris!

damn it you are right and i am friendly with them aswell - that will be me off robins christmas card list!

[cueman]

oh dear god please no - not this again - firstly not all the pros use parris cues this is an urban myth, in fact right now only one player in the top 16 does. secondly parris cues are fine if you get a good one, they are just too expensive for what they are. there are plenty of other makers at least as good, try looking up Trevor White, Andy Bream, Mike Wooldridge, Robert Osbourne, Tony Glover, Craftsman cues, Mastercue, Martin Chesworth, Tony Ions, O'min, Stamford cue makers, Peradon, Andy Gibb, and Kevin Deroo.

Well actually, 2 players of the current top 16 use a Parris cue!
Secondly I agree that Parris are too expensive for what they are, but that should be levelled at Wooldridge, Osbourne and a few others in that list.

In fact any cue costing over £200 is a rip off, when you consider the realistic cost of the materials the mark up is at least 150%.
For most club players and the standard of player coming on here enquring about cues I would say one company only in that list who's prices are realistic, Craftsman cues. Considering at least 3 professionals off the top of my head that use them, I'm certain that they are every bit as good playing wise as any other cue maker you can think of.

[ADR147]

Well actually, 2 players of the current top 16 use a Parris cue!
Secondly I agree that Parris are too expensive for what they are, but that should be levelled at Wooldridge, Osbourne and a few others in that list.

who is the second? agreed they are both expensive aswell but i would argue their quality is on average higher per £

In fact any cue costing over £200 is a rip off, when you consider the realistic cost of the materials the mark up is at least 150%.
For most club players and the standard of player coming on here enquring about cues I would say one company only in that list who's prices are realistic, Craftsman cues. Considering at least 3 professionals off the top of my head that use them, I'm certain that they are every bit as good playing wise as any other cue maker you can think of.

You have to pay for people labour and experience. Paul hunter, Matt Couch and..........?

[trevs1]

Well actually, 2 players of the current top 16 use a Parris cue!
Secondly I agree that Parris are too expensive for what they are, but that should be levelled at Wooldridge, Osbourne and a few others in that list.

In fact any cue costing over £200 is a rip off, when you consider the realistic cost of the materials the mark up is at least 150%.
For most club players and the standard of player coming on here enquring about cues I would say one company only in that list who's prices are realistic, Craftsman cues. Considering at least 3 professionals off the top of my head that use them, I'm certain that they are every bit as good playing wise as any other cue maker you can think of.



I can understand where you are coming from with these sentiments, but, it's not entirely how everyone sees it.

I don't think Parris prices are too high for the more 'standard' range particularly. Where I'd say it becomes a little salty is when you are looking at the Ultimate stuff at £400 - £500 and well above.
Even having said that, it's much to do with people's perception of value isn't it? The difference in the overall quality of the 'very good' to the 'very best' can be noticed, BUT, it's the individual that decides whether these differences are worth the premium demanded for this difference.

This viewpoint could be levelled at many other things in our lives, cars, shoes or even Marks and Spencers sandwiches, can all be argued to be better than the next thing by this or that margin.

I definitely would not agree that anything over £200 is a rip off however.
This way of thinking is just too simplistic when the reality of how a really beautifully built cue is taken into consideration.
For the bespoke work that is done by some of these cuemakers, often to very exacting standards, many hours of skill and attention to detail is employed. Material costs are not as cheap as many would believe, especially for the very best work, where only the best of everything will do and the finished product has to be 'just so' for the client.

I think many would agree it takes some effort to build some of these beautiful cues, if they were to see how it is done by some of the specialist makers.
I'm pretty certain also, that there would be very few, if any, doing this type of work if they were unable to charge over the £200 threshold.

It wouldn't be possible to stay in business.

[ADR147]

I can understand where you are coming from with these sentiments, but, it's not entirely how everyone sees it.

I don't think Parris prices are too high for the more 'standard' range particularly. Where I'd say it becomes a little salty is when you are looking at the Ultimate stuff at £400 - £500 and well above.
Even having said that, it's much to do with people's perception of value isn't it? The difference in the overall quality of the 'very good' to the 'very best' can be noticed, BUT, it's the individual that decides whether these differences are worth the premium demanded for this difference.

This viewpoint could be levelled at many other things in our lives, cars, shoes or even Marks and Spencers sandwiches, can all be argued to be better than the next thing by this or that margin.

I definitely would not agree that anything over £200 is a rip off however.
This way of thinking is just too simplistic when the reality of how a really beautifully built cue is taken into consideration.
For the bespoke work that is done by some of these cuemakers, often to very exacting standards, many hours of skill and attention to detail is employed. Material costs are not as cheap as many would believe, especially for the very best work, where only the best of everything will do and the finished product has to be 'just so' for the client.

I think many would agree it takes some effort to build some of these beautiful cues, if they were to see how it is done by some of the specialist makers.
I'm pretty certain also, that there would be very few, if any, doing this type of work if they were unable to charge over the £200 threshold.

It wouldn't be possible to stay in business.

very well said trevor.

[cueman]

What I should have said was that for any cue maker worth his salt charging over £200 for a quality playing cue is over charging IMO. Forget the beauty of the cue or intricate splice/veneer work, I was merely talking about a no frills plain cue with a top quality ash or maple shaft, Ebony butt. No cue maker should be charging more than £200 for that, yet many of those listed do.

For ADR, I know that Ronnie uses a Parris, the 2nd player was Steve Lee.
As for professionals using Craftsman, actually I can think of 4, the two you mentioned, along with Jimmy Michie and Ben Woolaston. Not quite sure but I think Selby used a Craftsman for a while to, but I'd have to check.

[trevs1]

What I should have said was that for any cue maker worth his salt charging over £200 for a quality playing cue is over charging IMO. Forget the beauty of the cue or intricate splice/veneer work, I was merely talking about a no frills plain cue with a top quality ash or maple shaft, Ebony butt. No cue maker should be charging more than £200 for that, yet many of those listed do.

For ADR, I know that Ronnie uses a Parris, the 2nd player was Steve Lee.
As for professionals using Craftsman, actually I can think of 4, the two you mentioned, along with Jimmy Michie and Ben Woolaston. Not quite sure but I think Selby used a Craftsman for a while to, but I'd have to check.


I fully appreciate what you're saying Cueman, but picture this:

If someone asks for a one piece ash/ebony cue, with a specific grain pattern to the shaft, for the ebony butt to be 18" long with 6.5" splice fingers, (as even as they can realistically be), weighing 18 ounces, balancing at 17.5" from the butt end, with a taper that is clearly specified right through its length to the exact mm measurement, with the butt end flaring out a touch at the very back, should this still cost £200 or less?

These are just a few of the specific requests people can provide you with when asking for a cue to be built. These details take time and effort to get right, and sadly, this has to be paid for.

I'm not for one moment attempting to defend the prices some makers charge for the type of cue mentioned above, when it is very specific. We all know these prices can be very prohibitive for many players. But, there is a market for this work, and these prices.

While that is in place and remains the same, it will continue.

[Watford]

Hay!
18in butt 6.5 in splice fingers (even as pos) change it to 16oz and 18in balance and that's me!

[mattyshinobi22]

jimmy michie uses a parris cue, was talking 2 him recently and he showed me

[ADR147]

and what about when people want something totally different for example a 58.5" long one piece cue in steamed pearwood with 4 splices in ebony and then 4 in karelian birch balance point at 18.5" slightly longer than normal flat spot on the face splice and 18.8oz in weight - its not something any cue maker would have the woods for in stock or could get without a lot of time looking for them.

[ADR147]

well to the best of my knowledge current top 16 are as follows.

John Higgins – North West Cues (Kevin Muncaster)
Graeme Dott - Andy Gibbs Cue
Shaun Murphy – Tom Newman 1370 cue modified by Rodney Hind
Ken Doherty – Old maple rack cue
Ronnie O’Sullivan – John Parris traditional
Peter Ebdon – Old machined rack cue.
Neil Robertson – Andy Bream cue
Stephen Hendry – Acuerate 147 (yuk!)
Ding Junhui – Stamford cuemakers
Stephen Maguire – Trevor White cue
Mark Selby – Not 100% but was playing pool with a Coutts cue
Mark Williams – Barracuda gold medal machined cue
Stephen Lee – no idea
Ali Carter – Antique cue
Steve Davis – Ye Olde Ash B&W cue.
Ryan Day – Trevor White cue.


So by that list old ****ty rack cues might be the way to go!

[Watford]

I thought Jimmy Mitchie had a craftsman he's on their website!
I thought Lee had a Parris but I don't know why!
New business idea ****ty Rack Cues as used by Ken Doherty!

[Erwan_BZH]

I think Peter Ebdon uses a Stamford cue, as well as Mark Selby...At least he appears on their website.

[ADR147]

ebdon definately not. it a machine spliced maple cue he has had for many years.

[Watford]

Peter Ebdons on everones web site he's a right slut!
I think he's got a stamford case not cue!
I've never seen Selby on that site!
I actually got offered tickets to the final because a mate knows Mark and they needed a driver but I couldn't go because I was getting married on the tuesday.
Anyway my point is I can find out what Marks got!

[Erwan_BZH]

I've never seen Selby on Stamford's website neither but they are talking about him like if he plays with a Stamford cue.

[ADR147]

i think it might be a stamford cue he uses for snooker

[JParrott1]

Well thanks for your replies, it would seem I can get a cue of equal quality to a parris one but at a far better price.....

[ADR147]

yes easily!

[The_Teach]

Just to add my two pence worth has anyone tried Master Craft cues? I started dealing with them recently. Very small company based in Shropshire, not overpriced and fantastic cues when they get them finished.

[ADR147]

i have had maybe 30 mastercraft cues - not bad, uk made - good trade prices aswell.

[potter741]

maybe i'm ignorant or something,
but can anyone tell me why, if parris cues are so good, why are there so many being sold on ebay.
why would anyone get rid of a cue that is brilliant.
i wouldn't dream of parting with my cue.
there were 10 on ebay last week, 5 today ?

[Wity]

Same reason why so many swore Levis made the best Jeans in the world till they found theres many a brand made elsewhere better and cheaper.

Even posers can learn.

[cueman]

maybe i'm ignorant or something,
but can anyone tell me why, if parris cues are so good, why are there so many being sold on ebay.
why would anyone get rid of a cue that is brilliant.
i wouldn't dream of parting with my cue.
there were 10 on ebay last week, 5 today ?

Its mainly because many professional players use them and so people buy them, hoping that it improves their game. If you know that a certain player uses a Parris cue, it is bound to help with sales. When people get their cue though and realise that its no different to many other cues they ditch them as they hoped that paying over £300 for a cue would make them better players.

[JP1]

Steven Lee's Cue was made by Will Hunt, Stephen browses this forum now and again, go on Steven tell them;
Because players are photographed with John Parris does not mean they use his cues, Jimmy White has NEVER used a Parris cue, although often claimed that he does? some professionals do try the cues given to them by Parris on a pro bono basis, but play tournaments with their original cues.:snooker:

[Jlaix]

I know one pro who was sent 5 parris' and sent them all back :D

[scoo24]

Steven Lee's Cue was made by Will Hunt, Stephen browses this forum now and again, go on Steven tell them;


He DOES??? :cool: I'm dying to find out his cue specs, he's my favorite player. COME ON Stephen, get your bum back up in the top 16, please :)

[ADR147]

I know one pro who was sent 5 parris' and sent them all back :D

i know one who sent them to me to ebay on his behalf!

[bongo]

I know somebody who wanted a John Parris cue and bought one of those other pariscues.com cues, the company has a name so similar so that people may be confused between the two I guess, he ordered it recently and I think he has the wrong Parris company! :(

[keith auld]

Steve Lee does use a Parris cue - I know bacause I used to do work on it for him. He used to visit my workshop on a regular basis driving all the way from Trowbridge to visit for new ferrules to be fitted and other work

[cueman]

Steve Lee does use a Parris cue - I know bacause I used to do work on it for him. He used to visit my workshop on a regular basis driving all the way from Trowbridge to visit for new ferrules to be fitted and other work

Its amazing how much BS can appear on the Internet and I'm glad you've confirmed this Keith. I saw Stephen playing in a pro am and saw his cue close up enough to confirm it was a Parris. Why people come on here and say otherwise is beyond me. Its like they want to try and dent Parris reputation by spouting lies. :confused:

[ADR147]

equally though parris does give the impression on his site that everyone uses his cues which is not the case.

[drlog147]

I know somebody who wanted a John Parris cue and bought one of those other pariscues.com cues, the company has a name so similar so that people may be confused between the two I guess, he ordered it recently and I think he has the wrong Parris company! :(

just looked at this site and i'm shocked i've a parris classic and so has the pariscues.com and it even looks the same has anybody bought one of these cues and what did they think, were they of inferior quality.
how can they get away with such batant similarities

[Son of Cliff]

Must say that today is a buyers market and you have to get your face in the publics eye to sell big, and John Parris has done this better than the rest, by appearing on the television whenever he can :snooker: and the link he as with Steve Davis for example ( SD Joint ) Can you blame him, he must be doing something right.
The only thing which I can see happening is that he might get too big and the personal touch can be lost, which you will always get with a less commercial cue maker :snooker:
Just like to say I have one of Johns Elite cues and my game is better now than for the last twenty years been banging in the 100's again :snooker: and John also told me to bring the cue back if there was any problem at all, result. ;)

[ADR147]

in the end a cue is a tool and it does not matter who made it - if it suits you its fine.

[Semih_Sayginer]

equally though parris does give the impression on his site that everyone uses his cues

his site doesnt give me that impression

[drlog147]

in the end a cue is a tool and it does not matter who made it - if it suits you its fine.

yes adr your as alway's, right
one of my mates still plays with a jimmy white cue with the old fashioned
looking white joint and he swear's by it cost him about 20 quid mid 80's wshich was a lot of money then

[ADR147]

umm he says 8/10 players use his cues - its not true, at least not now. and he has photos with lots of players with him some of whom i know have never used one of his cues.

[Semih_Sayginer]

umm he says 8/10 players use his cues - its not true, at least not now. and he has photos with lots of players with him some of whom i know have never used one of his cues.


thats completely different to your other post. the one where i replied saying i get a different impression.

his site does not make me think everyone uses a parris

[ADR147]

i believe its the impression he is trying to create.

[Semih_Sayginer]

i believe its the impression he is trying to create.


that may or may not be the case. that said i still dont get the impression from the site that everyone actually *does*

[mattyuk]

bribery? lol.

[archalf1471]

Out of curiosity i visited pariscues.com and found this "helpful guide" in choosing the right cue for you! what a lot of tosh!

How to choose the specification for your custom made cue for your built and comfort of playing:

What a player should achieve: In order to choose the right cue, the built and comfort of play the player takes is very important. These factors together combined with the right specifications will deliver the maximum power of the cue for every shot.

Holding the cue: Remember, when your holding the cue, you must hold the cue at the end of the butt. Most people don't realise that holding the cue at below the cue butt or anywhere less than that provides an incorrect hold to the cue, which could result in shots that don't provide the right power.

Stances: There are 2 types of stances:

the square stance and
the boxing stance ( ANYONE FOR A FIGHT????)
The stance you choose when playing also plays a role in the types of selections you make for your cue.

1. Length of the cue: The length of the cue should be level to the shoulder of the player. For example: If the player is in boxing stance and he is 5 ft 7 ins, the length of the cue should be 55 inches in length in order to hold the cue to the end of the butt. If the player is in square stance, the length of the cue should be 54 inches in length since the square stance makes the frame of the body a little bit shorter.

5 ft 8 in to 5 ft 9in - 57 inches
5 ft 9 in to 5 ft 10 in - 58 inches
5 ft 10 in to 5 ft 11 in - 58.5 inches
2. Diameter of the tip: The average is 9.5 cm It all depends on the player as what kind of shot he likes to play. For make a good potting - the tip size should be 9.7 - 9.8 cm the disadvantage is very difficult to apply the side. For making a good side to the cue ball, 9.0 cm is good, the disadvantage is not easy to make a good potting since the shaft is a bit narrower. So 9.5 cm is good for both shot.

3. Diameter of the butt: the average is 29.5 cm

5 ft 6 in to 5 ft 7 in - 29 cm
5 ft 8 in to 5 ft 9 in - 29.5 cm
5ft 9 in to 5 ft 11 in - 30 cm

[ADR147]

my cue would be about 62" on that basis!

[hegeland]

2. Diameter of the tip: The average is 9.5 cm It all depends on the player as what kind of shot he likes to play. For make a good potting - the tip size should be 9.7 - 9.8 cm the disadvantage is very difficult to apply the side. For making a good side to the cue ball, 9.0 cm is good, the disadvantage is not easy to make a good potting since the shaft is a bit narrower. So 9.5 cm is good for both shot.

3. Diameter of the butt: the average is 29.5 cm

5 ft 6 in to 5 ft 7 in - 29 cm
5 ft 8 in to 5 ft 9 in - 29.5 cm
5ft 9 in to 5 ft 11 in - 30 cmThat's one heck of a cue!

[keith auld]

Andrew - you can slag John off as much as you like - I spoke to him the other day - he said he won't rise to this sort of abuse, his comment to me was ' they don't understand !' - who you consider to be the world's best cuemaker (or otherwise) is your, a laymans, opinion - there are a number of cuemakers, including myself who you know nothing about and about whom, without seeing what they produce, you cannot comment on. I accept that this is an open forum and, as a result, the beauty of it is that it is probably more democratic than anything else in our lives, so as a result I would like to urge reasoned debate and subsequent critiscm; when you achieve what John has achieved in snooker, I will take more notice of your comments - when you personally are able to make cues to the standard that John does (or has made by his employees for him - see Mike Wooldriges site - ' me and the crew'), then I'll take more notice of your comments. I know that this will probably mean that you'll find reason to dislike me, and perhaps slag me off in the future; I have no interest in belittleing you, I don't even know you, and vice versa, and I'm sure that on principle you'd never have one of my cues, but at least be fair, you might not like John, but for crying on loud give credit where it's due

[ADR147]

what are you talking about? i have never slagged off john, or anyone else come to that except the acuerate! i actually like the guy and i am the first to say how huge his contribution is.

also i would hardly describe myself as a layman.

[ADR147]

umm he says 8/10 players use his cues - its not true, at least not now. and he has photos with lots of players with him some of whom i know have never used one of his cues.

this is my only post - it says this on his site i am just quoting it its not true - in what way is that not fair comment?

[ADR147]

ok keith firstly i have never seen one of your cues so as yet i will not comment on them.

secondly this is from john's site.

"John's Cues set the standards that the rest of the industry tries to follow. His cue designs are regularly copied. You will also find descriptions of the way his cues are made creeping into the text of many other aspiring cue makers. They say that being copied is a form of flattery, although John sometime wishes others would be a bit more individual.

Most cue manufacturers tell you how good their cues are. We prove it by the large number of professionals that use Parris Cues and the amount of tournaments that are won using Parris Cues. Our customers include eight of the top ten and thirty six of the top fifty professionals. Anyone can say they are good we prove it. There is a difference. "

i have only 2 issues with this, both of which i will stand by.

number one,
i personally own cues in almost every design parris makes that are older than he is, there are only so many designs out there and its not realistic to claim you created them... his best selling cue will be the traditional which as the name hints is based on a burwat champion.

number 2,
8 out of the top 10 and 36 of the top 50 do not use his cues. and this is a very bold claim to make and a good advert if people believe it.

[keith auld]

Andrew - I go back to my original reply - that which John said to me - ' Keith, they don't understand ! ' , that was his qoute - take it as you wish! -
If you're not a layman - how would you describe yourself ? - are you a cuemaker? how many cues have you made ? how long have you been making cues for? - or are you an observer to the art rather than a creator? - I like Trevor's comment (to parphrase) about how people have no idea of the actual costs of the materials or the demands people put on cuemakers, always expecting the impossible for next to nothing.
As I said earlier, I don't know you, but somehow we seem to have got off on the wrong foot - as a fellow scot (by birth, if not by being raised - like most scots of the age my father emigrated after the war, but never stopped talking about how great the place was, my brother and myself used to think ' if it was that great why the f*** did you ever leave !), you'll appreciate that I'll say what I believe to be the case; in this regard you appear to be closer to every cuemaker other than John. You constantly espose the abilities of Trevor and Mike and hold them as the world's best cuemakers, in your opinion, all I ask is that you qualify what you say as ' in your opinion ' - it's just that this forum goes worldwide and there are a number of people all around the world who may be influenced by biased opinion, give John a break! - his pedigree goes beyond all others and to those people who have bought John Parris cues, all I can say is that the cues you own will always have a resale value whereas others (including myself ), will be long forgotten and only be remembered by the experts of the Antiques Roadshow

[S Davis Fan]

If you look at his Web Site you will notice that it is dated 1999, and as far as I can remember has remained the same as when it was created in 1999. I remember from the early 1990's that his ad in Pot black the text was pretty much the same as it is now. Maybe at that time that the pros that used his cues rang some truth. I think he cares more about making his cue than advertising. The Ad recently shown was the same as last time, and you can't blame John for that, that is just a stop gap for the BBC. But let me ask you this if John cared more about making statements for his Web site about who uses what ect. How come it still goes on about 2007 finalists. Surely the fact that Ronnie is the World champion and uses a Parris cue would be the ultimate sales pitch. But alas nothing on the Web site. I rest my case.

[Jlaix]

you appear to be closer to every cuemaker other than John. You constantly espose the abilities of Trevor and Mike and hold them as the world's best cuemakers,

he's got a point Andy.

[JP1]

If you look at his Web Site you will notice that it is dated 1999, and as far as I can remember has remained the same as when it was created in 1999. I remember from the early 1990's that his ad in Pot black the text was pretty much the same as it is now. Maybe at that time that the pros that used his cues rang some truth. I think he cares more about making his cue than advertising. The Ad recently shown was the same as last time, and you can't blame John for that, that is just a stop gap for the BBC. But let me ask you this if John cared more about making statements for his Web site about who uses what ect. How come it still goes on about 2007 finalists. Surely the fact that Ronnie is the World champion and uses a Parris cue would be the ultimate sales pitch. But alas nothing on the Web site. I rest my case.
Not quite true, John Parris did add very recently on his web site that he has no affiliation with any other cue maker, and that he sources all materials personally;;
So he has responded to rumours that he imports part or all of his material or cue blanks from asia, he counteracted what he believed to be lies about him very quickly, adr147 is correct when he says that the web site contains blatant lies by claiming how many of the worlds top professionals actually use a Parris cue, it is fair comment to ask that if he corrects one perception he considers damaging to his reputation why not correct another? is it because this one is beneficial to him? Just a few comments on Keiths contributions, Stephen Lee may have more then one cue ?? and does it really matter what he plays with?? at the moment I am sure Steven wished he had a magic wand instead of a cue, does not seem to live up to his potential, let's hope it changes soon for him, why not make him a new cue altogether Keith, maybe that will do the trick? I dont understand the position Keith takes with John Parris, are you saying that Parris is beyond criticism?? that no one is allowed to make any adverse comments about his products?? and I dont understand your condescending tone with adr147, you dont need to be a cue maker of 50 years standing to know about cues, its like wine, age does not guarantee quality, if you bottle an awful wine it will still be an awful wine in 50 years time, the only difference will be it's 50 years older, I have seen a lot of Parris cues manufactured in the last 10 years, some very good, others average and others like the awful 50 year old wine, remember Keith, no one has forced you Parris or any other cue maker into that craft, it was your choice, and thank god we have an open market economy where competition determines the quality and value of goods traded, you may think that someone paying 700 pounds and more for a snooker cue is not entitled to make comment about the product he receives because the suggestion is that "" they dont understand "", that is just plain nonsense, and indicative of market manipulation, on that basis Rolls Royse would still be selling their clapped out old carriages which broke down more often then not today. You produce goods for re sale and you put yourself into the arena of public comment and review of those products, that is what a free market economy is all about.
John Parris has not invented or re invented the cue, he copies what cue makers before him did, the art of hand planing splices onto cue butts is claimed to have originated with Peradon and not John Parris, how did the greats of the past ever get by?? Joe Davis Walter Lindrum, Willie Smith, et al, they all used cues to play the game with.

If adr147 espouses the abilities of Trevor White and Mike Wooldridge over John Parris, maybe in his opinion their cues are just BETTER, thank god we live in a democracy where we can openly say what we like and what we dislike.

No one would mention John Parris, if John had not put himself into that position by claiming that he was THE worlds cue expert to whose standard the rest of the industry aspired to, it may just be Keith, that the rest of the industry has not just caught up with Parris but actually surpassed him?

Joe Average buys a Parris cue based on the perceptions created mainly by John Parris that his cues are the pinnacle in snooker cues, they try to impress their peers by saying look at me I am also playing a Parris cue I must also be important, if you read comments like " my Parris cue has lifted my game by 50%" or " it plays like a dream" and so forth, they are sad in a way, because somehow they hope that a certain cue will give them what nature and a lot of hard work have not managed to do, talent and skill, everyone with a modicum of intelligence realizes that if such a cue existed, a cue that plays like a dream or lifts your ability by 50% the WSA would have it banned immediately, just imagine Ali Carter using such a cue, with an extra 50% in ability the scores in the final would have been easily reversed.

Cirticism is a fact of life Keith, and as the saying goes if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[keith auld]

Plenty of food for thought here - and I accept all your points, - in an earlier post on this subject I said
'I accept that this is an open forum and, as a result, the beauty of it is that it is probably more democratic than anything else in our lives' (ie our ability for free speech and our personal opinions) - I merely wanted to point out that Andrews opinion should be viewed as a 'personal' opinion and not one of given or stated fact otherwise it could be misconstrued as bias or worst of all, character assassination. John randomly visits the forum and it would be nice for all of us to have his input, but you can't blame the guy for deciding not to visit the forum anymore if he and his products are going to be continually slagged off. You might argue that he should come on line and answer his critics - but he considers he has nothing to gain by getting involved in a slanging match and as he said
' Keith,they don't understand'. I'm sure Andrew will continue to sell John's cues on ebay and profit from them - thet's the irony of it all

[ADR147]

he's got a point Andy.

yes he has, only one but i will admit that! - because i do believe that to be the case, and i have seen a lot of cues over the years by a lot of different makers, interestingly i have never come accross one of keiths maybe because of geographical location.

[ADR147]

Plenty of food for thought here - and I accept all your points, - in an earlier post on this subject I said (ie our ability for free speech and our personal opinions) - I merely wanted to point out that Andrews opinion should be viewed as a 'personal' opinion and not one of given or stated fact otherwise it could be misconstrued as bias or worst of all, character assassination. John randomly visits the forum and it would be nice for all of us to have his input, but you can't blame the guy for deciding not to visit the forum anymore if he and his products are going to be continually slagged off. You might argue that he should come on line and answer his critics - but he considers he has nothing to gain by getting involved in a slanging match and as he said . I'm sure Andrew will continue to sell John's cues on ebay and profit from them - thet's the irony of it all

i don't think anybody here has attempted to assasinate the character of anybody else? most people on the forum are fair minded and their opinions reasonable.

I will of course continue to sells johns cues when i get them, it would be stupid to imagine that you could do what i do and not and of course many of them are superb. I will even sell yours keith if they are offered to me at the right price, in the end i have a mortgage to pay!

[archalf1471]

this has been debated at length many a time, Parris or not Parris. I see both sides of the argument. I agree with ADR to some degree and respect Andrews opinion as the amount of cues that go in and out of his door every year does qualify him to comment on what is or not a good well made cue, just because you are not a cuemaker does not mean you cannot critisise someone who makes the cue, especially idf you have spent a considerable amount of the folding stuff on the thing.

I too speak as I find, and thus far in 25 years of playing snooker the best received cues I have had in terms of timbers used and build quality were made by both Mike Wooldridge and Trevor White regardless of price.

I have owned 2 Parris Ultimates and both were indeed excellent cues. I have also owned a Parris Champion cue for 5 days only as it was possibly the worse cue by any of the "main" cuemakers there is. I have also seen many a Parris cue over the years and have seen a mixed batch some good some bad. To this degree I would suggest that certain cue makers ( manufacturers) are more consistant than others? Could a link here be, that smaller firms where the cues are made by smaller teams in smaller batches produce more consistant work?

Moreover again repeating what many people have said previously John Parris has marketed himself well over the years and should be applauded because of this, but could the overall quality of the product now being jeapordized by being a victim of his own success???? Others better positioned or qualified than myself my be able to judge better

[MikeWooldridge]

:D :D :D

what a marvellous thread!

several things:

1) excellent post jp1. except it's royce not royse.... :D

mind you it's a long post and when i 'proof read' some of my long rambles, i find loads of weird new words that my fingers made up!

2) keith, i can't really see what adr147 said that equates to 'slagging off'. and he would be one of the last people on this forum i would label a 'layman'.

as far as i know, he has made cues, and has certainly dealt in all brands of cues for many years. so in that respect, his opinion is one of the most valuable on this forum for the less knowledgeable seeking good advice.

as for him holding myself and trevor in high esteem, i think he holds trevor in higher esteem. but that's cos he's cheaper and adr147 is scottish after all... :D

3) i myself have recently said to several people that i feel sorry for john parris and the stick he gets on this forum, and elsewhere. i have the utmost respect for what he has achieved. without doubt the market leader and no.1 brand in the world.

whether the quality of product deserves that status or not is another issue. but it is an issue that concerns many people in the market for a quality cue, which is why this forum is an invaluable tool for the 'confused'.

but what john has done well, is market himself and his products superbly. or as i like to call it - bumming professionals.... :D :D :D

and of course, with a little help from our famously unbiased british broadcasting corporation... :rolleyes:

peace... :cool:

disclaimer - it's just a joke john, keep up the good work... :)

[archalf1471]

""John randomly visits the forum and it would be nice for all of us to have his input, but you can't blame the guy for deciding not to visit the forum anymore if he and his products are going to be continually slagged off. """

Well this raises the question why are they regularly slagged off......When with other cuemakers on here Mike and Trevor specifically we see nothing but praise for their products????

If you shout loud enough about how great your products are, market leader etc then you should ensure these products stay top of the pile or accept the criticism that goes with producung sometimes substandard stuff

[Wity]

How many pros have or play with one of his cues influences posers.

How many pros that actually paid for their Parris cues might be influential though.

John Parris has responded on a forum to claims of him buying Thai cues and rebadging them over at www.uk8ball.com some time ago.

I would never buy a Parris cue, well not unless I believed I could make a profit on it the next day on ebay There are simply far too many owners of them who have complained about the poor quality of them.
One example of this was when I pm'd a guy selling one on ebay, his add stated that he was charged £30 extra when he bought it because he asked for it to be 1" shorter than the norm. My pm was: "what do you expect he had to send it back to Ulkrit to do it.:D"
and his reply, "lLOL you'd have thought he would have sanded the saw marks out though wouldn't you?"

I'm a long long ways off being a cue expert but having read just about all there is on the nett about snooker cues since I got the bug 18 months ago I now own a cracking cue made by Trevor which he's told me will cost £400
should I want it replaced like for like but the truth is if it were nicked I'd say oh **** whereas if anyone nicked my best cue that cost me under a ton I'd cry.

My best cue ?

http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=9931

[keith auld]

The reason you probably haven’t seen many or any of my cues over the years is that
(a) for 10 years I only made a limited number of cues due to having to bring 2 kids up on my own and as a result only had time for custom jobs and almost all of those went abroad or locally (‘Checkside’ a member on the forum recently saw one of my posts on this forum and told his father who wanted a new cue – I’d previously made one for him 15 years ago and he’s always been happy with it, subsequently he placed his order and is now a happy owner of another Keith Auld cue – but if my memory serves me right, he was in Kuwait when I made his 1st cue), so from that point of view, hopefully all my customers have been happy with their cues over the years and they have become like close friends and don’t want to be parted from them.
(b) Like Trevor over the past 10 years I haven’t advertised, prior to that I used to have a regular ¼ page colour advert in Pot Black magazine. As a result of being on the forum I’ve realised the power of the internet and developed a web page and have a new one being constructed at the moment which will accept orders and paypal, and although I have many orders from UK customers, I still do a large amount of my trade overseas; currently I’m completing an order for China worth in excess of £2500, with another larger order in the wings to follow this one. Also I’ve just signed a contract with a Chinese distributor to repair and alter cues on his behalf, irrespective of who the original manufacturer was, and a consignment is just being cleared of customs and due to be delivered to me today containing cues from many of the names you’ve mentioned in your previous threads. Personally I believe the future for the British cuemaking industry is China and those makers not involved in this huge market are missing out, but once you’ve blotted your copybook with the Chinese, you’re frozen out their market, so great care must be taken in this regard to ensure only the best goes to them
(c) I appreciate your offer to handle/sell my cues, in fact I’m flattered to be grouped in amongst all the great cue makers mentioned so far, but as you can see from the above, I’ve got my hands full and wouldn’t want to get involved with another distributor, home or abroad at the moment

[Watford]

Paris cues my mate bought one of those on flea bay din't know they had a site!
How funny are they!

Parris cues my 2 penneth!
As I've said before seen some good, seem some not so good. I wouldn't say never buy a Parris. I would say never buy a Parris without seeing and playing with it first.
And I'm sorry but I agree that the web site is misleading to people who don't know better.

[ADR147]

there is no doubt that china is the way things are going and i send a lot of cues there and have a number of contacts, but so far they are not producing top quality cues themselves. its just a matter of time though.

[keith auld]

Even with their undoubted ability to make virtually everything, they still want handmade English cues and they have the money. They don't mind paying for the best, so long as that's what they get. I've been told of one cuemaker that my particular customer won't trade with having been let down by him in the past and the quality not being good enough, for this cuemaker to get back into the Chinese market will be very difficult because they all talk to each other and compare notes, hence the need to send the best you can and hope that they are well received and if not be prepared to replace without cost. Their demands for how many arrows on a cue, exact weights and balance points shows their requirements and attention to detail. I must confess that I like to work to these perameters, it makes to whole process more personal.

[trevs1]

Even with their undoubted ability to make virtually everything, they still want handmade English cues and they have the money. They don't mind paying for the best, so long as that's what they get. I've been told of one cuemaker that my particular customer won't trade with having been let down by him in the past and the quality not being good enough, for this cuemaker to get back into the Chinese market will be very difficult because they all talk to each other and compare notes, hence the need to send the best you can and hope that they are well received and if not be prepared to replace without cost. Their demands for how many arrows on a cue, exact weights and balance points shows their requirements and attention to detail. I must confess that I like to work to these perameters, it makes to whole process more personal.


Not to mention more time consuming, stressful and ultimately difficult to manage.

[keith auld]

Well said Trevor - but wholly satisfying nonetheless (when it all goes right) - but expensive too (particularly when it goes wrong)

[Darth_Spud]

Off topic I know but... Erm how exactly do you get into cue making? Are there any online tutorials? I'd love to have a go just to see what its all about.

[trevs1]

Off topic I know but... Erm how exactly do you get into cue making? Are there any online tutorials? I'd love to have a go just to see what its all about.

I think for many, if not most, it's a self taught skill, so fiddling around with a few cues is a start.

As for what gets you into thinking of doing it, I don't recommend going about it as I did, as a hobby after a motorcycle accident.

That bit was'nt so much fun.

[platt]

After reading the comments by players, dealers, cuemakers and the people who jump on the band wagon, I myself have owned 5/6 parris cues over the years and all but one was worth keeping. this was a traditonal cue that john himself worked on.
So in my humble opinion it is hit and miss with parris cue.
But i have always found john very helpful to deal with and a nice guy to speak to.

[Watford]

Off topic I know but... Erm how exactly do you get into cue making? Are there any online tutorials? I'd love to have a go just to see what its all about.

It's money for old rope!
Just sand down a broom handle, bit of black paint, jelly tot on end!
Bob's your uncle!
Get a "Parrris cue" badge, stick it on ebay and £300 no worries! ;)

[Wity]

Don't forget the lathe to fit the jelly tot though Spud that's essential. :D

[Watford]

You can get special laminated jelly tots from Wity at £10 a pop!

[mattyuk]

Ever since I got more interested into looking at a new cue, (because for about 5 years I played with a BCE!), I became totally fascinated by cue making. I would love to watch a top cuemaker like Trevor or Mike make a cue from start to finish.

One day I will make a cue!

[Darth_Spud]

Don't forget the lathe to fit the jelly tot though Spud that's essential. :D

HAHA! I didn't bother with a lathe after though, I made myself a 'cue turning device' (patent pending :D) out of plywood and some old rubber wheels kind of like the NiveCraft Pocket Lathe. Works a treat! Ill send you the quick sketches I made if you want to make one of your own Wity :p

Back on topic

Has anyone seen this on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JOHN-PARRIS-SPECIAL-CUE-ALUMINIUM-CASE_W0QQitemZ290229537770QQihZ019QQcategoryZ21568 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Surly this John Parris cue can't be worth £300? :eek: Certainly doesn't look it anyway.

[ADR147]

hopeful price for a centre split pool cue spec i would have though 150-200 nearer the mark.

[platt]

That cue was on ebay a few weeks back (hit and miss) ?

[Argee1977]

There are so many good cue makers out there just now that there is a great choice for any buyers, from what i've seen in the cues i've gone through i'd agree with ADR, Mike Wooldridge cues are in many cases a work of art, but it doesn't guarantee you will play any better than with a Parris cue or others. I've just switched from a Wooldridge cue to a Hunt & Osborne and have to say that the feel of the H&O cue is better for me, but in reality if i was to take that cue to Wooldridge, Parris, White, etc they would all produce a fantastic cue that would have a very similar feel.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that the best thing for a cue maker is the personal touch, being able to talk to them or even better, visit them and test a few cues to give them the exact specification that you want.

[hegeland]

Interesting thread, I can see many similarities with the debate the pool community has had about Predator.

For me, I prefer cues that are not custom made. I don't like any fancy looking stuff, just a plain cue with the latest "technology" inside.

[keith auld]

Thank goodness there is the choice, variety and quality difference out there. There is a place for all in this market from the cheaper mass produced cues for the beginners to the handcrafted bespoke cue for those that appreciate the quality and can afford it. Fortunately there don't appear to be any cowboys in the ranks of bespoke cuemakers in this country, survival in a competitive market ensures that any cowboys will disappear fairly rapidly, the snooker community are fairly picky about what they will accept or not as the case may be, and this is illustrated by the response to the threads received. In some ways it's healthy that John Parris is continually talked about in this fashion as he set the original benchmark of a successful small cuemaker in the global market and this has encouraged the other cuemakers to make, advertise and be judged on what they produce against this original standard. It is therefore understandable that the bar standard has been raised and what the respected bespoke cuemakers are now making are, to a degree, 'works of art', the quality of which is exceptional due to the time and care each of us takes over producing and finishing an individual cue. I'm sure as cuemakers, we'd love to have John's orderbook and considering the number of cues he must make or have made for him by his employees in the course of a year, I personally wouldn't wont to undertake, and that he maintains the standard he does is remarkable, I know from my point of view that receiving orders for cues with complex patterns and colours, balance points, descending arrows on shafts etc., is very exacting and difficult to achieve in large quantities, so when I receive orders for 10 or 20 cues with these sorts of requirements, it's a struggle to maintain delivery dates and complete other individual orders at the same time, and maintain the quality you'd like in a perfect world.
Long may the competition continue between all us cuemakers - the only people who can benefit in the long run is the customer, you lot out there wanting our cues; however bare in mind that individual craftsmanship comes at a price and we all have either mortgages and families to support, so don't try to squeeze us to hard for that deal you're after!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trevs1]

Thank goodness there is the choice, variety and quality difference out there. There is a place for all in this market from the cheaper mass produced cues for the beginners to the handcrafted bespoke cue for those that appreciate the quality and can afford it. Fortunately there don't appear to be any cowboys in the ranks of bespoke cuemakers in this country, survival in a competitive market ensures that any cowboys will disappear fairly rapidly, the snooker community are fairly picky about what they will accept or not as the case may be, and this is illustrated by the response to the threads received. In some ways it's healthy that John Parris is continually talked about in this fashion as he set the original benchmark of a successful small cuemaker in the global market and this has encouraged the other cuemakers to make, advertise and be judged on what they produce against this original standard. It is therefore understandable that the bar standard has been raised and what the respected bespoke cuemakers are now making are, to a degree, 'works of art', the quality of which is exceptional due to the time and care each of us takes over producing and finishing an individual cue. I'm sure as cuemakers, we'd love to have John's orderbook and considering the number of cues he must make or have made for him by his employees in the course of a year, I personally wouldn't wont to undertake, and that he maintains the standard he does is remarkable, I know from my point of view that receiving orders for cues with complex patterns and colours, balance points, descending arrows on shafts etc., is very exacting and difficult to achieve in large quantities, so when I receive orders for 10 or 20 cues with these sorts of requirements, it's a struggle to maintain delivery dates and complete other individual orders at the same time, and maintain the quality you'd like in a perfect world.Long may the competition continue between all us cuemakers - the only people who can benefit in the long run is the customer, you lot out there wanting our cues; however bare in mind that individual craftsmanship comes at a price and we all have either mortgages and families to support, so don't try to squeeze us to hard for that deal you're after!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Could'nt agree more with this part.

[JP1]

Thanks for proof reading my post Mike, maybe they would have been more successful using my spelling?

John Parris has summonsed the demons himself by proclaiming to be the worlds leading cue expert whose products are of a standard others try to aspire to, and he will be judged by that claim, if you care to compare, John has lifted much of what he claims straight from the Peradon website, so much for innovation.
Anyone may knock Parris but you cannot deny his ability to market himself and to project a trade logo recognized around the world, all of that has been associated with and probably still is a lot of hard work and dedication, not to mention the money, the cues he provides pro bono for the leading pros have got to be paid for by other means.

As the old saying goes, the harder I work the luckier I get.

My opinion is that problems and complaints arise when the product fails to live up to the sales hype, I invite everyone to look at these two Parris ultimate cues for sale on ebay no's 110253901259 & 110253910775 and tell me that this is the pinnacle of cue craftsmenship, and before the usual Parris defence force jumps in, these cues are 100% authentic, you may also ask ebay why they no longer remove obvious Parris copies from their site, the answer you will get is that John had complained in the past that EVERY cue on ebay was a fake, for obvious reasons, it has crossed my mind that he may be quite happy to have these fakes float around on ebay, it offers a convenient way to explain away some of his lesser creations, oh that cue, yes that is an obvious fake;;
He could easily produce cues in a way which does not allow copies to be made, but I suspect he may not want to, as this would lock in those cues to him. No one can claim that cues produced in Asia are worse then those produced in England, you get good and bad in both countries, England has the edge simply because all the snooker events take place there, all the players are there and it is easier for them to get in touch with the cuemaker whenever they need to, the cues made today by O Min or Master Cue are as good as the best produced in England, and they have moved to protect their product by hallmarking the brass joints and logo discs in a way that is not easy copied, O Min was the first to use the vacuum joint, he hallmarks the joint which was patented by Luo Pei who founded the Hengxuan Billiards Factory in the south of China, and not in England,all those who know Luo Pei will also know of his early association with most, especially the better known, cue manufacturers in the UK, there are some diabolical cues being made in China as well, if Dominic Dale is still on this forum he may give his comments on cues he had made by Luo Pei and how they compare to the very best produced in England ?
Buying a cue is a personal thing, not just from what suits you length weight and feel wise, I have a number of one off cues, including a very early Parris one piece, which is a truly magnificent cue, I would not buy one of his current cues because they are not made by him, but that is just me, just a few eeks ago I took delivery of another special made by what I regard as one of the best cue makers in England, I appreciate the tradition of English cue making and effort that went into finishing that cue, I have the exact same cue made by Master Cue & O Min both at least as good in quality and better in finish, there is not one linishing mark visible on the butt from both O Min & Master Cue, and they were 4 times cheaper, so from a players point of view, these cues are superb cues to own and play with, I am happy to pay what I have paid for the English cue,and will continue to buy on that basis, it is my decission and that in my opinion is how it should be, if you are happy to buy just a name in John Parris knowing he had nothing to do with the creation of your cue, then do so, it is your choice and your money, feeling happy about your cue will allow you to play your best whether you pay 20or 2000 pounds for a cue.

I have never had a cue made by Keith Auld, if you read this post Keith how can I get hold of one of your cues? would love to have one.

[keith auld]

Hi JP - I agree totally with everything you've said - it's reasoned, fair, unbiased and what's more contains information that I didn't know, from which I've now learnt, and hopefully will be the wiser for it.
You can contact me through my temporary website (a new one is being constructed at the moment that will accept orders and paypal and also allow individual cues to be extracted from the sight and blown up in size, for a better look) at www.cuemaker.co.uk
or email me at cuemaker1@aol.com - I look forward to hearing from you in due course and would relish the opportunity of making a cue that you could compare against all those others you have/had.

[poolqjunkie]

Well, at least John Parris is not over charging his customers like Kevin Deroo does with his butterfly spliced cue in the USD $800+ mark.:D

I now own a John Parris that he made in the early 90's. I like it. It plays better than my other Parris cues from before. I was thinking real hard about getting another cue, and I came across this JP. I got it because it really played very nicely for my liking. There was a Will Hunt that I tried, and it was a great cue, but I ended up getting the JP--I was able to get more action on the white ball with less effort with this JP. The shaft was a bit warp at the front end, but I like it a lot. The Will Hunt was a nice cue, with very solid hit and was fancier. The price difference was not really that big a deal, but the way the cue played was what made the difference to me.

I agree however that his web site is a bit misleading, but let's face it, it is marketing. I think he should have rephased his words a bit differently. It is very difficult to follow up on what cues the pros are using at present, so it is impossible to make an accurate claim by saying something like what he is saying unless he is paying them money with a contact to bind them to use his cues exclusively for a period of time. John Parris could have said such and such have won such and such championships with his cues--without getting into whether such and such is still using his cues now.

As for the John parris cues now, I think he must have pre made a bunch of parts or have set up his machinery to build cues with a certain length and dimension so he can finish them much faster. Therefore, it would take him extra time to reset all his set up to build a cue that is shorter or longer. With the amount of orders he is getting, he would never be able to get anything done if he builds every cues from scratch.

Now about the claim that he was buying blanks from Thailand, I think if he was, then the points of his recent cues would have been more even......just joking:).

Putting his perhaps misleading claims aside, I think no one can dispute the fact the John Parris is a great cue maker, and has set the standards for many to follow, right?

[ADR147]

hey keith, who is your sales guy? he knows an awful lot about you, and has said a lot of the same things you have said on here about joints and things. quoted from another forum.

http://www.snookertalk.com/archive/index.php/t-2608.html

20.11.07
"The best cues are still made by Keith Auld - He's been making cues for over 30 years and preceeds all the individual cuemakers like Parris, Will Hunt (Hunt & O'Byrne), Wooldridge and others by a number of years. Robert Osborne was one of his many apprentices (so if you like Robert's cues - you now know who taught him). Last year Keith was featured on BBC's South Today TV channel showing how to handmake snooker cues and also headed a cue making day at the Royal Victoria Country Park, to help budding cuemakers trying to learn the trade. His cue joints are still made by Mick Reece, who also used to make all the cue joints for Hunt & O'Byrne in the 80's, and designed and made the original spirolok quick release joint used by Hunt & O'Byrne and later copied and still used by Robert Osborne. Moreover Keith is the only cuemaker mentioned in the Matchroom Snooker book (first published in 1988).
Keith still makes genuine handmade cues in Southampton, Hampshire and they're a lot less costly than many others - check them out on www.sotonsnooker.com (http://www.sotonsnooker.com) - what's more he straightens and re-builds cues as well and is possibly the only cuemaker who trains and teaches the cuemaking art to the next generation - definitely still the best cuemaker
Y. Barrett"

[MikeWooldridge]

wtf?!? :eek:

one month later:

http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=11331&highlight=keith+auld

remarkably similar....

[ADR147]

maybe keith is having a fling with mr/mrs Y. Barrett ?:D:D

[MikeWooldridge]

lol.

or maybe keith's a hypnotist and embedded his life story in y?... :D

who the hell has a first name beginning with y anyway???

[keith auld]

Cheers Andrew - but this is the person who first told me about the forum - until then I didn't know it existed and their comment was that 'their are so many people and cue makers on this site that are so far up their own ***** that they think that it is beyond them to help people who just want to know about cues and cuemaking' - I then checked out the site and had to agree with them so put forward my credentials to help others that wouldn't - so thanks Y Barrett, if you're still contributing to the forum - not only were you right, and I've been able to help people all over the world start making their own cues but ironically the forum has also brought me new customers and new markets

[ADR147]

pray do tell who is so far up their own arses? as a layman i can't tell.

[keith auld]

I'm sure you have more imagination than that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[keith auld]

As for the similarity in the 2 posts on the net - if you search the net and put in my name under cue makers there is a site called something like pool cue something or other that gives my details similar to that, that was originally posted, also there are various publications from the 1980s that bear various details about me and who I made cues for at that time - regrettably I'm older than I wish I was and have been in the cuemaking game longer than most/all of the contributors here so it's nice that someone has taken the time and effort to 'stand my corner and give me the credit that they have' - likewise it was nice for one of the contributors (checkside) that as a result of my contributions on this forum he was able to tell his dad of my move from London to Southampton and he in turn was able to get in touch with me to make him another cue to the same dimensions I had 15-20 years ago

[MikeWooldridge]

mmm, this is getting very interesting.

are you referring to me?

[ADR147]

i assume its either you or trevor.

[MikeWooldridge]

are the cuemakers on this forum really up their own arses?

i find that a rather unnecessarily inflammatory remark.

what does anyone else think?

[MikeWooldridge]

i assume its either you or trevor.

it says cuemakers, so if it's me i can't be the only one....

[Semih_Sayginer]

when did JP 'start' making cues?

who did he learn off of (if anyone)?

has he ever worked in a cue making partnership?

[keith auld]

Mike I know neither you or Trevor so cannot comment and as I said to you in a previous thread when you asked about someone ripping off Mck Rees's cue joints - I said I wouldn't be prepared to say and the same stands here ! best leave it to others to make up their own minds ( and judging by the pm's I've received they already have)
Re Mick Rees - I spoke to him, as promised last night and told him that you wanted to speak to him about cue joints, he's given me permission to pass his phone number on to you and says he'd be happy to help you if he can, he also said that he thought that he might remember you when he played for Surrey against Hampshire, he asked if you had blonde hair, I said you may have then but you have a chrome dome now, must be stress of all that work you've got ! Anyway, he also said that he can't take on any more work but if you want information or help, he'll help if he can

[mattyuk]

are the cuemakers on this forum really up their own arses?

i find that a rather unnecessarily inflammatory remark.

what does anyone else think?

I think its disastorous, call the firing squad.

[Darth_Spud]

what does anyone else think?

Yeah you’re defiantly up your own arse Mike, just look at your prices! They alone belong up your arse :p

[mattyuk]

In all seriousness, look at the graft these guys put in to make these cues..

As a butcher, I truly understand the torment of people saying, 'The prices are too high in your shop'. Then I have to explain the work and preparation, making sure the meat is local and up to the standards we set for ourselves. Then theres the slaughter, (christ, hard graft!!), the de-boning. I know its off topic, but Ive said it before you only get what you pay for in life. And I fully respect Mike, for his wonderful service, his cues and the superb website.

I know you intended it as a joke, I just thought I'd lend my 2 pennies worth.

[Darth_Spud]

In all seriousness, look at the graft these guys put in to make these cues..

As a butcher, I truly understand the torment of people saying, 'The prices are too high in your shop'. Then I have to explain the work and preparation, making sure the meat is local and up to the standards we set for ourselves. Then theres the slaughter, (christ, hard graft!!), the de-boning. I know its off topic, but Ive said it before you only get what you pay for in life. And I fully respect Mike, for his wonderful service, his cues and the superb website.

I know you intended it as a joke, I just thought I'd lend my 2 pennies worth.

Was wondering when Mikes shadow was going to turn up ;P (Joke)

[mattyuk]

I knew you would say that :D

[MikeWooldridge]

:D
Yeah you’re defiantly up your own arse Mike, just look at your prices! They alone belong up your arse :p

well the sun shines there so it's the place i enjoy best... :D

[Jlaix]

mmm, this is getting very interesting.

are you referring to me?

I wouldn't blame him if he was.

[MikeWooldridge]

In all seriousness, look at the graft these guys put in to make these cues..

As a butcher, I truly understand the torment of people saying, 'The prices are too high in your shop'. Then I have to explain the work and preparation, making sure the meat is local and up to the standards we set for ourselves. Then theres the slaughter, (christ, hard graft!!), the de-boning. I know its off topic, but Ive said it before you only get what you pay for in life. And I fully respect Mike, for his wonderful service, his cues and the superb website.

I know you intended it as a joke, I just thought I'd lend my 2 pennies worth.

a butcher!!! jesus christ! i would have guessed anything but that. your artistic talent is amazing. i bet your chops are a work of art.... :)

[MikeWooldridge]

I wouldn't blame him if he was.

bring it on. what's your problem?

[Jlaix]

your punctuation for a start

[MikeWooldridge]

erm... are you alright in the head?

[LWB]

How did we get on to prices? lol. Workmanship and pricing are a funny thing, I got a craftsman majestic and it's so rubbish I'm ready to go back to my £70 machine spliced master cue, make sense of that!

Yes your art is good bud, do me one of my idle Randy Couture so I can hang it up somewhere lol.

[MikeWooldridge]

good point lwb.

prices are irrelevant. nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. if the price is too high, go elsewhere.

my favourite quote:

defintion of a fool - knows the cost of everything yet the value of nothing.

[MikeWooldridge]

Mike I know neither you or Trevor so cannot comment and as I said to you in a previous thread when you asked about someone ripping off Mck Rees's cue joints - I said I wouldn't be prepared to say and the same stands here ! best leave it to others to make up their own minds ( and judging by the pm's I've received they already have)
Re Mick Rees - I spoke to him, as promised last night and told him that you wanted to speak to him about cue joints, he's given me permission to pass his phone number on to you and says he'd be happy to help you if he can, he also said that he thought that he might remember you when he played for Surrey against Hampshire, he asked if you had blonde hair, I said you may have then but you have a chrome dome now, must be stress of all that work you've got ! Anyway, he also said that he can't take on any more work but if you want information or help, he'll help if he can

can you pm the number please?

but it still begs the question, who on this forum is up their own arse?

yeah i played fo hampshire a few times. not blond though. and i've still got a full head of hair. i just choose to shave it regularly...

[keith auld]

ok - will do tomorrow

[Darth_Spud]

your punctuation for a start

Tut tut - Would you like to borrow a capitol Y and a full stop? :rolleyes: :p



defintion of a fool - knows the cost of everything yet the value of nothing.


Very true Mike which is why I just spent £350 on a Playstation 3 - Why won’t the Misses see that it’s an investment!!!!

[ADR147]

In all seriousness, look at the graft these guys put in to make these cues..

As a butcher, I truly understand the torment of people saying, 'The prices are too high in your shop'. Then I have to explain the work and preparation, making sure the meat is local and up to the standards we set for ourselves. Then theres the slaughter, (christ, hard graft!!), the de-boning. I know its off topic, but Ive said it before you only get what you pay for in life. And I fully respect Mike, for his wonderful service, his cues and the superb website.

I know you intended it as a joke, I just thought I'd lend my 2 pennies worth.

send me a few point steaks - i will make it worth your while - only a butcher will know what i am talking about!;)

[Jlaix]

Tut tut - Would you like to borrow a capitol Y and a full stop? :rolleyes: :p


2 a's in 'Capital' would help.

[mattyuk]

How did we get on to prices? lol. Workmanship and pricing are a funny thing, I got a craftsman majestic and it's so rubbish I'm ready to go back to my £70 machine spliced master cue, make sense of that!

Yes your art is good bud, do me one of my idle Randy Couture so I can hang it up somewhere lol.

So now the coin is to me?

I was simply referring to what Darth Spud was saying. It was a joke but I felt like saying something constrcutive.

And I dont just do art for anybody in the street pal. Im doing a lot of work outside of my own job for Codemasters (game company), so Im only doing the Mike Wooldrdge stuff for now.

If everyone thinks the prices are irrevelant, why say that some cuemakers are too much? Just stupidity in my eyes.

And finally to Mike, yeah Ive been killing animals since I was about 8. Rabbits, pigs, lambs, my grandad got me into it, then my dad showed my how to do it all. People are quite shocked at first that me could do such a job, but after all its a trade. And butchery is becoming a dyring trade like cuemaking. Im only thankful im in a good trade.

[totlxtc]

This thread is going nowhere.....someone close it please

[mattyuk]

I want to find out what Keith meant by up there own arses.

If he wont ellaborate, he wont get a good reputation on this board will he?

[LWB]

I want to find out what Keith meant by up there own arses.

If he wont ellaborate, he wont get a good reputation on this board will he?

Firstly matty, if you can't take a bit of banter about your art then you may want to consider taking it elsewhere because this is a snooker forum. You'll notice I posted positively on the thread you made about it, and you responded. But from this thread I can see that you don't have a sense of humour about it. Which is ironic since you have chosen mike as your subject, and idle. No offence mike I'm sure you know what I mean.

[Semih_Sayginer]

I want to find out what Keith meant by up there own arses.

If he wont ellaborate, he wont get a good reputation on this board will he?

i dont think that post when put against all his other helpful posts will make most folk think badly of him.

i enjoy reading his posts and think hes very helpful

[mattyuk]

How is he my idol. You dont even know me!

What are you on about my art for. I was simply saying I was busy so theres no point in me trying to do it, because I have priorities elsewhere.

If you think I cant take criticism, it shows how little you know me. Every art related forum Ive been ive gotten great constrcutive criticism whic Ive took on the chin. Thered the people taht I listen to, there the ones who strive for perfection and I listen with open ears.

So mate, if you think Im a ray of light up Mike's arse, you know **** all about me.

[mattyuk]

i dont think that post when put against all his other helpful posts will make most folk think badly of him.

i enjoy reading his posts and think hes very helpful

He is very helpful, but saying that clearly upsetted a few people.

Why couldnt I have my say?

[Semih_Sayginer]

Why couldnt I have my say?

matty

read back. you asked a question. i answered politely with my own opinion

i never said you couldnt have your say at all. or infer.....

[mattyuk]

Sem I dont have a bad word to say about you at all, youve been very helpful to me on coming to this board.

But I dont know why that guy said something about my art. I was only saying I was bloody busy ffs. Saying I dont have a sense of humour, im from the north in Cumbria, so maybe my humour is lost on him.

[LWB]

Matty I'm not going to carry on the handbags with you, I'm sure we both have better things to do. I don't think you have understood a few of the posts on this thread and your reaction shows that. So I'll leave it at this, I never critised your art at all, and yes I don't know you.

[Semih_Sayginer]

Sem I dont have a bad word to say about you at all, youve been very helpful to me on coming to this board.

But I dont know why that guy said something about my art. I was only saying I was bloody busy ffs. Saying I dont have a sense of humour, im from the north in Cumbria, so maybe my humour is lost on him.

im not getting involved in your "debate" with LWB

you posted a comment and asked a question

i politely answered giving my own opinion

there was no need for you to reply to me asking why you couldnt have your say when i never said you couldnt

[mattyuk]

I understand the threads on here. Spud was joking about prices so I thought Ill say something constructive. I was just explaining in comparison to butchery about price and what you get.

Thats all mate.

[mattyuk]

sem i was saying in general, i wasnt aiming it at you.

[Semih_Sayginer]

sem i was saying in general, i wasnt aiming it at you.


you replied with with my quote. hence why i explained that you could have your say and that i personally didnt think you couldnt

[mattyuk]

right its all done. can we just leave this now.

[Semih_Sayginer]

right its all done. can we just leave this now.


hope so

hope i get answers to my questions about JP

[mattyuk]

my heads so messed, ive forgotten the point of it! :D

[Darth_Spud]

And finally to Mike, yeah Ive been killing animals since I was about 8. Rabbits, pigs, lambs, my grandad got me into it, then my dad showed my how to do it all. People are quite shocked at first that me could do such a job, but after all its a trade. And butchery is becoming a dyring trade like cuemaking. Im only thankful im in a good trade.

Were you in Saw 4? :D

"Ted Bundy, well known serial killer of perhaps as many as 40 women. As a child he spent time with his grandfather who was known to torment animals. Bundy admitted to killing animals when young, before killing women".

:eek: Run Mike run!!!!

Anyhooo! John parris - doesn't he make cues or something?
:D

[LWB]

Were you in Saw 4? :D

"Ted Bundy, well known serial killer of perhaps as many as 40 women. As a child he spent time with his grandfather who was known to torment animals. Bundy admitted to killing animals when young, before killing women".

:eek: Run Mike run!!!!

Anyhooo! John parris - doesn't he make cues or something?
:D

Hilarious lol. I thought John Parris was a boxing referee:confused::p.

[mattyuk]

lol Darth!

I thought Bundy killed women because of erotic bondage comics in the 60's.

[trevs1]

when did JP 'start' making cues?

who did he learn off of (if anyone)?

has he ever worked in a cue making partnership?

Maybe early to mid eighties, self taught from what I've heard, and, always been more of a one man band until he become bigger and took on others.

Don't think he's worked in a partnership in cue manufacture, but could be wrong about that.

[MikeWooldridge]

Tut tut - Would you like to borrow a capitol Y and a full stop? :rolleyes: :p


lol... :D

well spotted...



Very true Mike which is why I just spent £350 on a Playstation 3 - Why won’t the Misses see that it’s an investment!!!!


it's a burden we have to carry. training wives to understand the importance of such pleasures... :D

[MikeWooldridge]

when did JP 'start' making cues?

who did he learn off of (if anyone)?

has he ever worked in a cue making partnership?

i have no idea but was once told he originally worked for hunt & o'byrne then went on his own.

no idea if that's true or not. and never really given it another thought.

the boy done well. that's all i know... :)

[ADR147]

john parris isn't he the famous mountain man?

[Wity]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Wityspics/Headuparse.jpg

[keith auld]

most definitelty not true - John and I were working with the matchroom team about the same time - John preceeded Hunt & O'Byrne, as did I, John greatest asset was that Steve Davis became the greatest world champion and after he broke his cue in a car accident went to John who was local to him, and stayed at Johns workshop, which at the time was his garage, and he repaired Steve's cue which was broken in an awkward place and hence you see cues jointed in the middle of splices - which incidently is a total nightmare for cuemakers when customers ask for this - to his credit, he has taken that element and built his business on it - in the same way Hunt O'Byrne built their name on Jimmy White - Jimmy broke his 1 piece Mannock Cue just before the British Open - his manager at the time - Henry West came to see me to get a new cue for him, but I had nothing in stock and he went to Hunt & O'Byrne in the Elephent and Castle who ironically also had nothing in stock, other than this strange 3/4 cue that no-one had seen before.
All of us cuemakers at the time thought it was a joke and that Will Hunt had made a mistake and preduced something from a 1 piece cue that had gone wrong. How wrong were we!, Jimmy's talent was such that you could have put a tip on the end of a broomstick and he would still have beaten anyone. So those of you who play with 3/4 cues (myself included) and those of you who hate 3/4's and only want 1 piece cues, blame Jimmy for their worldwide popularity. All of us since, myself, Mike, John. O'min in fact anyone who has made a butt jointed 3/4 cue owes their livelyhood to Jimmy White and Hunt & O'Byrne. What this proves is that you've got to be in the right place at the right time, if I'd had a cue in stock at the time Henry walked through my shop door, then given Jimmy's natural talent then my cues would be as sought after as original Hunt & O'Byrnes - in a strange way its a bit like having a music hit - many years ago I played with a group called Rainbow in a recording session and they had a great hit with their single - but I was just a session musician and got no credit - that's where we cuemakers exist - in this ether that provides the tools for others to make theit fortune, as does Duncan Fearnley with his cricket bats. Come on guys - those of us who make cues do so because we love it and enjoy producing something that is part of us - a bit like Van Gogh - we make not make a fortune in our lifetime, but we're happy to get by and pay the mortgage, the same as the butcher, plumber or decorator. We're nothing special guys, just people, the same as you, trying to make a living

[ADR147]

are you seriously comparing yourself to van gogh ? :eek::eek: because you know in many ways i am like gandhi !!!

[Wity]

Oh okay then photobucket have it your way. Simlar pic:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v178/Wityspics/hua.jpg

[poolqjunkie]

are you seriously comparing yourself to van gogh ? :eek::eek: because you know in many ways i am like gandhi !!!

From what I understand, Van Gogh never received any fame nor fortune in his life time--but his life also proved to us that true talent will not go unrecognized.

I think cue makers are in a way like an artist, that much I am sure we all agree.

And if a cue maker has made a lot of cues and his work is good, his customer service decent, he will not get unnoticed. It may take a while but the words will get out. So, I have to disagree that someone is famous only because so and so was at the right time and the right place.

Mike Wooldridge is quite well known, although it is not due to any pro or world champions making magic shots with his cue--I am not even sure if he ever just gives cues to pro players for free. I would think it is rather his craftmanship and attention to details that has earned him the fame.

Then we have Trevor White, who is known for his top notch craftsmanship, customer service, not pro endorsement. He certainly has not been around for as long as Hunt.

But like I said, great talent will not go unrecongized.

I am also sure a lot of makers will be happy to give a cue to Alex Higgins, Jimmy White, and Steve Davis when they were at their prime. The fact that they ended up playing with a certain cue tells me they like that cue more than the other cues--so, I think the cue they use would mean more to them than just a broom with a tip on. If all cues are the same as long as one has talent, why was Steve Davis so desperate to fix his original cues to begin with? I therefore have to say that I do not agree if another cue maker had a cue for Jimmy White at the time, that this cue maker's cues would have been as sort after as Hunt--it may well be, but not necessarily so.

I am kind of surprised that Keith used Van Gogh as an example, because it is really not a very appropriate one in my opinion. Had Van Gogh lived to be 50+ in our time with such easy access to information, I would think that his work would have been widely recognized--and him a very wealthy man. Great work will not go unnoticed nor unrecognized especially in our internet age, whether such and such happened to be at a certain place and a certain time really should not have mattered much over time as long as the work is top notch. Just my humble opinion.

PS, I dont think Keith is comparing himself to Van Gogh though, he said in his own words he felt a bit like Van Gogh, but more like a butcher.

[mattyuk]

Good post Keith, very true. But I think cuemakers do make fortunes, look at Parris, and I think Mike will be a bit well off!!

Butchery and cuemaking has a lot on common too!
Being continually shouted at for the slightest mistake, low wage, and producing works of art!

[keith auld]

Nice one Wity ! - pity ther's not another showing which person's head it is, then we can close this thread

[keith auld]

cuemaking is just like any other job - we're all trying to make enough money to get by; there's nothing special to cuemaking, it takes learning and then continual work at so that making cues becomes second nature and easy. A master Butcher, Carpenter or any other trade has to work hard at what they do to learn their trade and it gets easier the longer you do it

[mattyuk]

who do you mean keith?

[LWB]

Are you saying that generally cue makers are just guys who do what they love, love what they do, and good results come because of it?

[keith auld]

I think that about sums it up perfectly !

[poolqjunkie]

Going back to the original topic of this thread, I also like the Superior, but I have seen olive wood sort of changed color over time and has become kind of "dirty looking." You should not expect the wood to look like the one shown in the picture on the site, especially not after you have used the cue for a while.

Parris cues have good resale values worldwide. It is not a bad buy if you take the resale value into consideration. Although there are others that make a great cue, not all of them can get you a good resale value especially when you go outside of the UK.

About which model I like, I think the basic ebony ash or the traditional is good. Sometimes, you can get a used one on ebay at a great price, and you may get more or less the same price when you sell it later.

[keith auld]

Sorry Matty - which thread are you referring to as I posted 2 at the same time

[mattyuk]

just the heads up there own arse bit.

[keith auld]

just a joke - considering some of what's gone before - couldn't resist it!

[mattyuk]

oh okay. .

[MikeWooldridge]

many years ago I played with a group called Rainbow



was there a court case? how are zippy and george doing theses days?.... :D



those of us who make cues do so because we love it and enjoy producing something that is part of us





true. why else put in the amount of work we do, and then quite often have to listen to people to bitch and complain about prices.

the same people who are possibly plumbers, electricians etc.. who think it's ok to step into someone's house for 5 minutes and charge £75...

or the painters who work on site, do an hour or so, **** off down the pub, then charge the company a full day....

that's nothing against other people's jobs/careers, good luck to them all. just the point that nobody complains about paying them

however, the person/craftsman (and this applies to many crafts) who spends hours and hours trying to make something perfect, and more importantly, has dedicated their life to their work, is expected to do it for next to nothing in the majority of cases.

it's gotta be love...




a bit like Van Gogh


the only thing i've got in common with van gogh is i got ****ed on absinthe once.

oh yeah, and can't imagine cutting my own ear off after the experience i once had when i accidentally 'snipped' off part of my scrotum whilst trying to shave my balls... :D



We're nothing special guys, just people, the same as you, trying to make a living


amen...

[keith auld]

Great Stuff Mike - see you havn't lost your sense of humour then - could be that Van Gogh wasn't prepared to go to your extreems for his art. In his mad state he was only prepared to chop off his ear - but trying to chop off your own b******* off, wow that's dedication for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mattyuk]

hes a scary prediction of parris cues in the future.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/mattyuk_2007/futurecue.jpg

[honleung80]

The simple matter of the fact is, John Parris cues are not what they used to be, or at least the majority of Parris cues being made today.

Whilst my opinion is not one based on decades of cue making, I feel logic here would be that if John Parris cues are built on the reputation that John Parris makes exquisite cues, what can be said if it’s a John Parris cue not made by John himself?

I work in advertising and can see how well John has marketed himself off the back of extremely hard work and knowledge in cue making. Fair enough that he has decided to reap the benefits of this and churn out cues with his label on it but if you’ve built a reputation as THE finest in the business, then it’s up to you to keep up that hard work and quality of product. If not, then you will simply lose that reputation over time.

I’ve owned two Parris cues and I’ve got to say that based on those ….there is no way I would go back to a Parris cue. I doubt I’m the only one that feels this way.

It’s as simple as this, if you bought a Picasso, a Monet or a da Vinci painting, how would you feel if you found out that it was actually one of his many understudies that worked on it?

[ADR147]

umm in the end a cue is a cue whoever made it, its not a mystical thing. every cue maker has some cues that are better than others its normal, i think its a issue of quality control and in the case of parris some slip through the net that shouldn't. however lets be honest about it i have seen many superb parris cues as well.

[poolqjunkie]

The simple matter of the fact is, John Parris cues are not what they used to be, or at least the majority of Parris cues being made today.

Whilst my opinion is not one based on decades of cue making, I feel logic here would be that if John Parris cues are built on the reputation that John Parris makes exquisite cues, what can be said if it’s a John Parris cue not made by John himself?

I work in advertising and can see how well John has marketed himself off the back of extremely hard work and knowledge in cue making. Fair enough that he has decided to reap the benefits of this and churn out cues with his label on it but if you’ve built a reputation as THE finest in the business, then it’s up to you to keep up that hard work and quality of product. If not, then you will simply lose that reputation over time.

I’ve owned two Parris cues and I’ve got to say that based on those ….there is no way I would go back to a Parris cue. I doubt I’m the only one that feels this way.

It’s as simple as this, if you bought a Picasso, a Monet or a da Vinci painting, how would you feel if you found out that it was actually one of his many understudies that worked on it?

A lot of cue makers have helps in their workshops. Also, some parts might be purchased premade. But as long as the end product is of top quality, I do not see any problem with that.
To compare a cue maker to a very famous artist in terms of value is not fair. The values of the two for one thing is not even close. Also, a cue is built to be used to play with, and they are all basically constructed more or less in the same way. An art piece such as a painting is not to be used in any way but to be admired, so there is not a question of playability. The styles of artists really varies, much more so than cue makers.
A cue is judged by its craftsmanship and its playability; a painting is judged by its collectibility.
It would be more realistic to compare a cue maker's work to that of a carbinet / furniture maker. Most furniture makers have helpers, may be also lots of advanced machinery and equipments to increase the effeciency of the production. This does not bother me, as long as the resulting good is outstanding.
A lot of customers complain about a long waiting period, and the price. But then they want the cue maker to do everything on his own. Why? Does that make the cue better in terms of playability or workmanship because it was done by one person? There is no reason why it would or should. To have different people doing different things can help to speed up the process and to free up more time for the cue maker to create and to improve.
If a cue maker's standard declines, it is not because he has others helping him; but because of his failure in training, to manage his team and to control the quality of work.

[honleung80]

You are absolutely right about quality of end product. I do not doubt that some Parris cues made today are of superb quality but i simply question why it is now very much 'Hit and Miss' compared to yesteryears. It seems that this is very much the general consensus these days.
For me it is simply because John Parris is making far less of his cues than he used to. It is no coincidence that the majority of people I know that support Parris are those that have his cues of atleast 8 years ago whereas those that have purchased a Parris within the last 2-3 years are very much hit and miss.
If the quality of a product is based on the craftsmanship of an individual, surely logic suggests that the quality will diminish if he himself is making fewer of them.
Regarding art, for me it is simply 'something to be admired' or a skill in a particular craft. For exmaple my first Puma Kings WERE a work of art....it's playablity' was also renowned. At the same time I'm not saying the likes of Mike Wooldridge or Trevor White should be compared to a Monet but if their craftsmanship is of the highest quality then too should be considered as artists in their own field.


A lot of cue makers have helps in their workshops. Also, some parts might be purchased premade. But as long as the end product is of top quality, I do not see any problem with that.
To compare a cue maker to a very famous artist in terms of value is not fair. The values of the two for one thing is not even close. Also, a cue is built to be used to play with, and they are all basically constructed more or less in the same way. An art piece such as a painting is not to be used in any way but to be admired, so there is not a question of playability. The styles of artists really varies, much more so than cue makers.
A cue is judged by its craftsmanship and its playability; a painting is judged by its collectibility.
It would be more realistic to compare a cue maker's work to that of a carbinet / furniture maker. Most furniture makers have helpers, may be also lots of advanced machinery and equipments to increase the effeciency of the production. This does not bother me, as long as the resulting good is outstanding.
A lot of customers complain about a long waiting period, and the price. But then they want the cue maker to do everything on his own. Why? Does that make the cue better in terms of playability or workmanship because it was done by one person? There is no reason why it would or should. To have different people doing different things can help to speed up the process and to free up more time for the cue maker to create and to improve.
If a cue maker's standard declines, it is not because he has others helping him; but because of his failure in training, to manage his team and to control the quality of work.

[platt]

This topic of JP cues is running short of things to say so this is my last entry. Like any business that flourishs it comes down to cost and over heads, John has build a name as Keith said on the pros that used him (DAVIS). As the years turned and the boom of the 80s and 90s started JP stepped up and met the demand and as a result his cues are wanted all over the world. Now he has a factory or large work shop with more cuemakers to meet the orders and like most things thats starts of a one man show the standard dose drop when products are mass produced.
So are the Parris cues as good as the older one ? are you getting value for money ?
Any player paying large amount of money for a cue must know what they are looking for.
JP is simply supplying cues on demand and if people are happy to pay for his cues and not have a major input into what there looking for they deserve what they get.
Any of the smaller cuemaker i've used are more than helpful to get you the right finish you are looking for. So i say good luck to JP from a business point of view he is a very clever man and when you get himself to have an input to a cue you get what you asked for.

[keith auld]

Quiet honestly I don't think you can beat O'Min, Master or the others coming out of Thailand, great quality, great finish and great quality of ash complete with small extension, telescopic extension and an aluminium case. Under those circumstances if I was in John's shoes I'd get them to make for me, get rid of the staff and overheads and put my name on the cue. However I'm not in John's shoes and don't have his orderbook and really wouldn't want it, as a businessman I can see his dilemma, he can't win whichever way he goes, because there's always a terrier (UK cuemaker) on his tail ready to chew him, so maybe accept it and say on a bulk order business go with a consistant quality and value, go Thai ! However,the most discerning of people, the Chinese market are buying from all over the world including Thailand, they are sending me cues from both UK cuemakers and Thai cuemakers asking me to run a taper on the cues that they have already bought and received. I sent an email to my Chinese distributor today saying that ' I've completed the retapers to the specs you asked for, and they the tapers are now actually exactly like my own cues that I'm sending out to you from your order , and do you want me to also re-do the taper on --------- so that it will also run true'. This is where the difference lies between the two makers and cultures and as I said in an earlier on another thread, UK cuemakers really have to sort out there own acts, if you're trying to compete on the bulk market, then you've got to have a lot of money to invest and expect little return, the best way is to stay small, reduce your costs and overheads, and offer a personal service and remain small however tempting it may be to join the big boys!!!!!!!!!!