EGADZUKE! Yuk! I hate layered tips!

[thelongbomber]

Well, I have been through two layered tips now. First was a new tip that local cue maker Kevin Deroo came out with. Tried that tip earlier this week and it didn't last more than a day. It's meant to be a snooker tip and rumour has it he is putting them on all his cues now. I found the tip to be hard to start, and just got harder and less responsive to the delicate stun, spin, etc needed for snooker. Maybe I sanded too many layers off? (shrugs shoulders)

Anyways, that tip came off like.... well, use your imagination.

Next, I tried a Talisman soft. Put it on last night and headed over to the club earlier today. Was eager to try the tip before my m8's showed up. Supposedly the tip needed break in time but after 2 hours, I didn't notice any performance improvement. It kept feeling like the tip was "mushy" and it really "muddled" all the delicate shots I'm used to playing. Had to hit the cue ball way too hard to get any "action" and controlled spin. After an entire evening of play, and several intervals of sanding, I'm frustrated and mentally messed up (don't we just love how snooker toys with our heads!!!).

For now, back to Elkmaster it is. I know about the Aurora tip, and the Milke Woolridge super tip but I don't see the point in spending that much. I think they all charge too much anyways and I'm making my stand!!!

Besides, I have enough to tinker with in my stroke/stance/eyes and so forth already anyways. Now I have to muck around with tips? NOPE. NOT INTERESTED. No wonder snooker players are a bit nutso!!! Especially after years of mucking around with feet, toes, fingers, eyes, nose, cues, tips, shoes, hands, palms, thumbs, knees, elbows, wrists, and now TIPS!!!

Aya

[hotpot]

The Talisman soft to get firmer and are a nice tip when bedded in , pheraps you did,nt give it long enough .

[jonnylovessn8ker]

Welcome to world, I'm not such a fan of layered tips, and cannot understand how the price is justified.
I started a thread about pressed tips, trying to loook for what's available on the market besides the usual few. please contribute, it'd be great to hear about your views.
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...ad.php?t=27360

[Acrowot]

I had an old two half two piece cue that was borrowed, until new cues came from Trev. So put a Talisman soft on it and I thought it was hard from the off.

Now that have my cues from Trev and he uses Elks on them, will keep using them until something happens with them, then will put the tip that poolqjunkie sent me and give it a good go. The Elks appear, to me, to be as good as the Talisman soft was. But what do I know. Lol. Just a simple country boy from turnip land (Lincs).
:snooker:

[poolqjunkie]

If you had a problem with a couple layered tips and came to the conclusion that layered tips are bad, what do you do when you have a few issues with pressed tips, will you also say you hate pressed tips? What are you going to use then?

A lot of people do nto like layered tip because of de-lamination. Sometimes it is the tips problem and sometimes it is the installer's problem--a person could be cutting a tip with a dull blade, doing the tip on a lathe with too much heat, putting water on the rim making the glue between the layers seperate...

Each brand of tip is different, and it requires experience, skill, and knowledge to know how to install it properly. Some tips tend to absorb glues very quickly on the bottom; some tips are only good when they are left on thicker...etc.

I do not like domed tip because although you can seal the rim of the tip against moisture, you cannot seal the glue lines exposed on the dome. Moisture can get into those glue lines and the tip can delaminate along those glue lines on the top, which is where they usually seperate.

Because the leather is exposed on the dome--if the tip is old then the leather chalk surface is also very old. But if you have an undomed tip you can have a fresh leather surface that is exposed only after you have installed and shaped your tip. Just minor issues but I think it matters. May be you had tried an old Talisman tip?

I think that tip Kevin Deroo uses was made for pool cues originally and he just had it trimmed smaller. A tip designed for pool and one designed for snooker are not the same thing. Pool requires a much harder tip while snooker requires more "touch" and "feel." There is also no need to have a very high tip for snooker because most of the tips will be trimmed off anyway. Usually those very high tips are that high because they were made to 14mm to begin with. They were made to 14mm because they were US pool tips.

I used to use Talisman tips (until I have my own tip) and I think they were very good. You do need to give it some time. Also, it may be just that the tip did not match your cue, which happens sometimes.

You sound like someone who is always looking for new cues and changing cues. If you dont mind me saying it, with new equipment you do need to give it some time. Even pros cannot just get used to a new cue or a new tip right away.

Hope this helps.

[thelongbomber]

Thanks for the info. I have seen/heard of your tips and may try at some point but right now not willing to spend $65 Canadian for 5 tips. Would prefer a one-tip purchase initially. Still the price per tip is too high. You have done a great job of marketing your tips here and the feedback has been good overall, so good for you. In the end, who am I to judge.. you run a business and it needs to be profitable, that I completely understand.

If you had a problem with a couple layered tips and came to the conclusion that layered tips are bad, what do you do when you have a few issues with pressed tips, will you also say you hate pressed tips? What are you going to use then?

I have played for 10 years and have used Elkmaster predominantly throughout that whole time. I have a Moori Medium on my 314 shaft and am happy with it. I have tried layered tips but so far have never found them to be comparable to a nicely broken in Elkmaster. Reportedly yours might do the job.

A lot of people do nto like layered tip because of de-lamination. Sometimes it is the tips problem and sometimes it is the installer's problem--a person could be cutting a tip with a dull blade, doing the tip on a lathe with too much heat, putting water on the rim making the glue between the layers seperate...


Each brand of tip is different, and it requires experience, skill, and knowledge to know how to install it properly. Some tips tend to absorb glues very quickly on the bottom; some tips are only good when they are left on thicker...etc.

What are your recommendations for buffing the tip sides? You talked somewhere about using a thin layer of glue underneath the tip, sanding it, and then applying glue to the cue and seating the tip. Haven't seen anything definitive on tip sides and how best to seal them. Glue perhaps? Also what are your glue recommendations? Loctite Gel I assume?

I do not like domed tip because although you can seal the rim of the tip against moisture, you cannot seal the glue lines exposed on the dome. Moisture can get into those glue lines and the tip can delaminate along those glue lines on the top, which is where they usually seperate.

Because the leather is exposed on the dome--if the tip is old then the leather chalk surface is also very old. But if you have an undomed tip you can have a fresh leather surface that is exposed only after you have installed and shaped your tip. Just minor issues but I think it matters. May be you had tried an old Talisman tip?

Yes, it's a Talisman predomed tip. I didn't have any issues with layers seperating and used a sharp knife, care, and patience. Also made sure to sand "down" and not against the tip. Did very light work on the tip sides to buff/seal. Did not use water. Never considered that the domed tip leather was exposed during production and that could affect the tip once it gets to the customer. You have sound reasons for your preference.

I think that tip Kevin Deroo uses was made for pool cues originally and he just had it trimmed smaller. A tip designed for pool and one designed for snooker are not the same thing. Pool requires a much harder tip while snooker requires more "touch" and "feel." There is also no need to have a very high tip for snooker because most of the tips will be trimmed off anyway. Usually those very high tips are that high because they were made to 14mm to begin with. They were made to 14mm because they were US pool tips.

I used to use Talisman tips (until I have my own tip) and I think they were very good. You do need to give it some time. Also, it may be just that the tip did not match your cue, which happens sometimes.

Totally agree. I have enough knowledge/skill in this game to understand "touch" and "feel" and positional play. I'm not a century breaker but I know how crucial the tip is. Yes, some tips work for some cues and that's just the way it is.

You sound like someone who is always looking for new cues and changing cues. If you dont mind me saying it, with new equipment you do need to give it some time. Even pros cannot just get used to a new cue or a new tip.

Hope this helps.

This last bit makes me laugh. Of course I change cues! Give me one person on this forum that hasn't changed their cue over the years! In fact, I have a theory that if you want to IMPROVE your game and truly understand cue action, stroke, grip, etc (which all help to improve your knowledge of the game) and become a "cue action mechanic" or coach, it HELPS you to change equipment from time to time. I found through my own equipment struggles that changing cues helped me anyways. I rely less on throw, side, spin, etc to "throw" balls into pockets and changing cues has helped me truly learn and understand center ball striking, stun, etc. Anyways, that's just my theory.

FYI, I once had a John Parris which turned out to be a fake. It was the best cue (3/4 ash) I ever owned and it's the cue that gave me the name "long bomber" and "potter". I lost that cue many years ago during a tip repair (used those stupid bamboo tip clamps which ripped a big piece out of the ash! ) so have been on the "hunt" for a good cue every since

Anyways, back to the tips you sell, send me one and if I like it, will happily pay you full price. If not, I will cut it off, send it back to you with a full review and recommendations and I owe you nothing. By the way, I'm in Vancouver.

[Slasher]

A lot of people do nto like layered tip because of de-lamination. Sometimes it is the tips problem and sometimes it is the installer's problem--a person could be cutting a tip with a dull blade, doing the tip on a lathe with too much heat, putting water on the rim making the glue between the layers seperate...

Each brand of tip is different, and it requires experience, skill, and knowledge to know how to install it properly. Some tips tend to absorb glues very quickly on the bottom; some tips are only good when they are left on thicker...etc.

I do not like domed tip because although you can seal the rim of the tip against moisture, you cannot seal the glue lines exposed on the dome. Moisture can get into those glue lines and the tip can delaminate along those glue lines on the top, which is where they usually seperate.

Because the leather is exposed on the dome--if the tip is old then the leather chalk surface is also very old. But if you have an undomed tip you can have a fresh leather surface that is exposed only after you have installed and shaped your tip. Just minor issues but I think it matters. May be you had tried an old Talisman tip?

This made me smile.
If the tip Mfg does not use a glue that will stand up to moisture they should not be making tips, sorry but this is pure nonsense, where do you come up with this stuff?
I have installed and trimmed hundreds of mooris and never one delam, and yes they get wet edge burnish and a dome, otherwise my customers would yell at me.

Mayur, it is hard to find a layered tip for snooker if you dont like harder tips as they are mostly made for pool. Even the soft Moori is still much harder than an Elk. However the Elks so inconsistent I can't be bothered installing ten to get one.
The softer talismans are harder to install and shape because they do fluff so care is needed not to start the delam process.
Here is a link to Muellers tips, they have a hardness rating that you can use to get some idea of the hardeness of different tips.

http://www.poolndarts.com/471-Layered-Leather-Tips/

[ADR147]

well i love laminated tips and i for one will never use another elk master!

[cazmac1]

I have to agree with the long bomer about the price of these tips. without any question they are well over priced. Elks are a pain but when you consider that you can get a box of 50 for the same price as 2 laminated tips they have to be better value even if you have to go through 10 to find a good one.

[poolqjunkie]

This made me smile.
If the tip Mfg does not use a glue that will stand up to moisture they should not be making tips, sorry but this is pure nonsense, where do you come up with this stuff?
I have installed and trimmed hundreds of mooris and never one delam, and yes they get wet edge burnish and a dome, otherwise my customers would yell at me.

]

Consider you have also posted in the past to attack Trevor White of not knowing what he was talking about regarding tips, I will just take this as a compliment.
If you would like to learn more about how to properly install a lamianted tip(other than Moori), and the effect of mositure on laminated tips, I suggest you to visit the Kamui web site, and/or ask and listen to other people who have more experience with tips than you. If you keep an open mind you can learn a lot more.
There are many other things you can use if you like to keep the rim of your tip firmer, and darker, other than using water, which softens the leather, sips into the layers and may cause delamination. If you have done a good job, customer has no reason to yell at you even if you do not wet the tip.
Moori is the most durable tip. You can do many things wrong and it still will not de-laminate--just because you can do something with a Moori does not mean you can do it with other tips.
I remember you posted that you have installed a Talisman S on your lathe and it delaminated on you almost right away, right? You can cut a Moori with a very high speed on your lathe--but with Talisman you could delaminte it with too much heat cutting it at too high a speed.

[cazmac1]

Hi poolqjunkie can you tell me why both the kamui tips I put on my cues both fell off one after the other, I've been putting tips on my cues for 30 years and this has never happen to me before. I can only think it has some thing to do with the material. Can you tell me the best method to glue on these tips,
how do you prep the tip and what glue do you reccomend.
Thanks cazmac

[abhi147]

Poolqjunkie

I went back to talisman and I am finding it pretty easy to play now and dont miscue much even if the tip isnt holding much chalk

The problem is i was messing around a little and applied a drop of water 2-3 times in one session and then chalked it, just wanted to check if that helped retain chalk

I now find the tip to be appearing much softer than the first time i installed it
IS it due to the water or is it due to bedding in? Been playing with it for a week 3-4 hours a day

[poolqjunkie]

Pm sent mate.

[abhi147]

Pqj,

I really appreciate the amount of effort you take to help people out here
Especially me with my impatience and stupid problems, lol.

Anyways I really wonder do you sleep at all!!!!????

Whenever I post a problem you reply with your inputs in less than an hour, and at times couple of minutes!!!!

[thelongbomber]

Mayur, it is hard to find a layered tip for snooker if you dont like harder tips as they are mostly made for pool. Even the soft Moori is still much harder than an Elk. However the Elks so inconsistent I can't be bothered installing ten to get one.
The softer talismans are harder to install and shape because they do fluff so care is needed not to start the delam process.
Here is a link to Muellers tips, they have a hardness rating that you can use to get some idea of the hardeness of different tips.

http://www.poolndarts.com/471-Layered-Leather-Tips/

Ya, that seems to be the consensus even though some new tip makers claim otherwise. Darnit, I'm almost frustrated enough to start creating my own tip!!! Hrmmm.. wonder if Elkmaster is interested in a joint venture

Slasher, what tip do YOU recommend and play with for snooker? Mooris soft?