Foul After Balls Come to Rest

[Gerry Armstrong]

I have a question about a situation that occurred in my league match this past week.

I was using the extended spider to bridge over several reds to get to the cue ball to pot a red. I played the shot and potted the red, and after all the balls had come to rest, I inadvertently touch a red with the end of my cue as I withdrew the extended spider as the extended spider head was wobbly. The referee who was a member of the opposing team called four 4 and that was the end of my turn.

I know it shouldn’t have been a foul as if the equipment I was using was provided rather than owned by me and was faulty, causing me to foul. Therefore I shouldn’t be penalised. However, I’ve seen lots of wobbly rests, spiders etc. down the years and never seen this rule enforced. It is incorrect but seemingly accepted that you get called for a foul regardless.

The point I am interested in is as all the balls had come to rest, should I have got 1 point for the pot on the red? Section 2, Rule 6c) states “A stroke is not completed until all balls have come to rest.” All the balls HAD come to rest so therefore the stoke was over. The rule makes no mention of withdrawing rests/spiders from the table as forming part of the stroke.


Therefore, assuming it wasn’t a faulty spider and I just fouled after the pot, what should the outcome be? Foul 4, 1 point to me for the Red and Foul 4 or 1 point to me for the Red and Foul 7 as I hadn’t yet nominated a colour?

[jrc750]

I dont know for absolute certain but i would say your shot hadn't finished until you have removed all extensions/rests etc, so when you foul it is still part of that shot. So i would say you dont get the 1 point for the red and its 4 points to the other player. Regarding the wobbly tackle, i would say it is still your responsibility so if you foul then tough
Could be wrong but thats the way i would see it

[Gerry Armstrong]

I dont know for absolute certain but i would say your shot hadn't finished until you have removed all extensions/rests etc, so when you foul it is still part of that shot. So i would say you dont get the 1 point for the red and its 4 points to the other player. Regarding the wobbly tackle, i would say it is still your responsibility so if you foul then tough
Could be wrong but thats the way i would see it

There is a specific rule about Ancilliary Equipment. Section 3 Rule 18b) states:

"Equipment normally found at the table which has been provided by another party including the referee are not the responsibility of the striker. Should this equipment prove to be faulty and thereby cause the striker to touch a ball or balls, no fouls will be called. The referee will, if necessary, reposition any balls in accordance with Rule 15 above and the striker, if in a break, will be allowed to continue without penalty."

But as I said, I've never seen that rule enfored as I don't believe it's widely known about.

[jrc750]

.... I don't believe it's widely known about.

Yeah interesting that one, bet it causes a lot of arguements unless the rules are laid around eh

[The Statman]

There has been great debate about exactly when a stroke has finished - it is not specifically described in the rules. But the general consensus (against my own opinion going on what the rule book actually states, although this rule is due for re-wording) is that the shot includes the time taken to get up from the stroke and remove any implements used.

So, going by this, it would be a foul on the red shot you were playing, so you don't score for the red and it's 4 away.

Having said all that, if the conclusion is that the wobbly rest was the cause of your foul - i.e. if the rest had been stable you wouldn't have fouled - then you should not be held responsible for the disturbance of the balls and no foul should have been called. (This is assuming it was a spider supplied at the venue and not one that you had brought with you.) The referee in this case should have (a) allowed the red to stand as a fair shot; (b) replaced the balls disturbed by the spider; and (c) removed the spider and found another one.

[coomsey76]

Would it not be your duty to check the rest/spider before you take the shot.....??

Souwester could be the one to clear this matter up.....??

[Souwester]

Only the striker can be fouled and you remain the striker until all balls have come to rest at the end of the stroke (rule 6c) AND per rule 5: "until the referee has decided he has left the table at the end of his turn."

Therefore, if you're still at the table trying to remove rests after the balls have come to rest, then you are still the striker and can be penalised for fouls, and won't score any points for that stroke.

The striker not being responsible for fouls arising from faulty equipment normally found at the table, was changed in the 1995 rule book, since before the striker WAS responsible for any such fouls. A lot of players do not realise that this rule now exists.

Having said that any referee needs to be sure that any foul was entirely due to the equipment and not just as a result of poor actions by the striker. As with push shots, jump shots, simultaneous contact, etc, the referee would normally give the benefit of the doubt to the striker if he's not absolutely sure.

[The Statman]

Only the striker can be fouled and you remain the striker until all balls have come to rest at the end of the stroke (rule 6c) AND per rule 5: "until the referee has decided he has left the table at the end of his turn."

Yes Souwester, that is fine - and covers the case where the player's shot is the last of his turn so he can still be penalised if he fouls before returning to his chair.

But it is only referring to the 'turn' and not to individual strokes, so it does not really cover instances where a player makes a pot, and will then be playing the next shot as well. There is no precise definition of exactly when one stroke starts and the next ends - except where the striker's turn ends and his opponent is to play the next shot.

The excerpt that you posted, of Rule 6, almost confirms that once the balls have come to rest it is the next shot - nothing in the Rules actually suggests otherwise. The Rule 5 quote furthers this conclusion since it makes clear that once the balls have come to rest (implying that the turn is regarded as over), he can still be fouled until he leaves the table.

[Krypton]

As mentioned, that has been discussed before. I can't remember - what's the conclusion? Statman?

How many foul points?

[DeanH]

I would think the foul would follow the normal foul situation:
If ON red, foul red = 4 points
If on red, foul colour = as below.
If on or foul Yell, Gre, Br = 4 points
If on or foul Bl, Pk, Bk = colour value.

[Gerry Armstrong]

Yes Souwester, that is fine - and covers the case where the player's shot is the last of his turn so he can still be penalised if he fouls before returning to his chair.

But it is only referring to the 'turn' and not to individual strokes, so it does not really cover instances where a player makes a pot, and will then be playing the next shot as well. There is no precise definition of exactly when one stroke starts and the next ends - except where the striker's turn ends and his opponent is to play the next shot.

The excerpt that you posted, of Rule 6, almost confirms that once the balls have come to rest it is the next shot - nothing in the Rules actually suggests otherwise. The Rule 5 quote furthers this conclusion since it makes clear that once the balls have come to rest (implying that the turn is regarded as over), he can still be fouled until he leaves the table.

That's kind of where I'm at too, as according to rule 6 my stroke came to an end when the balls came to rest, but as I potted the Red I'm still the striker as I'll be taking the next shot so I don't see where the rule about me leaving the table comes in to it as I won't be leaving the table?

Therefore, if stroke 1 is indeed complete should I not get 1 point for potting the Red?

[DeanH]

My thinking on the original scenario is that it would still be a foul as it is the players responsibility to control himself and any equipment he uses.
But as some of the quotes seem to suggest if the equipment if faulty then the referee can use his discretion. My definition of faulty would be maybe - too the extreme - the rest head fell off the shaft and hit a ball.
In the described scenario the cue hit a ball not the loss head.
If it was the loss head that hit a ball, then maybe discretion could come into it but I am sure in club environment most people would say foul.

[The Statman]

It is of course a nonsense that the removal of the rest etc should be considered as part of the next shot just because the balls have come to rest - it was used for that shot and removing it (and yourself) from the table patently belongs to the shot just played.

I believe the Rules are shortly to be revised (or maybe just have) and will stipulate exactly when each stroke is deemed to have started and finished.

[Souwester]

As Statman says, the definitions in the rule book are unclear, because although a stroke is defined and a striker is defined, the very situation described by the OP is not covered adequately.

My interpretation though, is that although a red was pocketed, you used equipment to make that stroke, and, therefore, placing or removing equipment on the table is part of *that* stroke, so, on the assumption that a foul was properly called, then that should be deemed to be part of the previous stroke (red being on). If, on the other hand, you think that stroke was completed, then you should have been fouled seven points for committing a foul before nominating a colour!

Consider this scenario though: you use the long rest to play a red, and having pocketed the red you're obviously playing for the black being the only easy pot, but that will also necessitate the use of the long rest in basically the same position. You foul the pink with the rest after the red has entered the pocket. At what point is it a foul on the red, penalty six, and a foul on the black seven points? To my mind, if, as referee, I was sure that the player was needing the rest for the next stroke, then I'd give a penalty of seven, on the grounds that the previous stroke ended when the red was potted and the cue ball stopped.

Conversely you pocket the black with the long rest and will need it again for your next red, but foul the pink before the black is spotted: in that case again it would be foul seven. Once the black is spotted you're on the red, so you'd get the break and be penalised four points.

It is a grey area, and one which the rule-makers are aware of, but in general I'd say that a foul is deemed to be part of a stroke until:

• all balls have come to rest; AND
• any balls requiring to be spotted are properly done so; AND
• any equipment brought to the table has been removed (unless required for the next stroke); AND
• you have left the table (unless the next stroke is to be played from the same position)

By the last point, I'm thinking of the striker staying down on the table, after balls have come to rest or being spotted, and then the player committing a foul as he gets up.

[Gerry Armstrong]

It is of course a nonsense that the removal of the rest etc should be considered as part of the next shot just because the balls have come to rest - it was used for that shot and removing it (and yourself) from the table patently belongs to the shot just played.

I believe the Rules are shortly to be revised (or maybe just have) and will stipulate exactly when each stroke is deemed to have started and finished.

That makes perfect sense but clearly isn't what the rules state at present.

Hopefully that will be addressed when the rules are updated.