Stance, not again surely!

[Particle Physics]

Ok, so I've probably gone over this before, but today at practice, I noticed that I could get very good accuracy on long pots using a kind of hybrid stance, the planting foot in line with the shot, but with the left foot half a foot forward to the right foot, parallel to the right foot (right handed player). So the feet are square on to the shot, as in the square stance practised by a lot of pros, but one foot is forward a bit like the boxer stance. Has anyone else tried/used this stance, and is it common? Obviously, there are quite a few stances around apart from the classic two.

[Terry Davidson]

Having the left foot an inch or two in front of the right (for a right hander) is VERY common and I use it myself so I'm not absolutely square.

However, I must make this comment IT'S NOT THE DIFFERENT STANCE WHICH IS HELPING YOU IN ITSELF TO POT BETTER rather it will be the fact that you are likely more stable and maybe even more comfortable.

As long as a stance is configured such that the player's upper body is stable and he is comfortable it doesn't really matter what it looks like. 'You don't pot the balls with your stance' (a direct quote from the 'interesting' Steve Davis in his blog).

Terry

[joejoe]

Having the left foot an inch or two in front of the right (for a right hander) is VERY common and I use it myself so I'm not absolutely square.

However, I must make this comment IT'S NOT THE DIFFERENT STANCE WHICH IS HELPING YOU IN ITSELF TO POT BETTER rather it will be the fact that you are likely more stable and maybe even more comfortable.

As long as a stance is configured such that the player's upper body is stable and he is comfortable it doesn't really matter what it looks like. 'You don't pot the balls with your stance' (a direct quote from the 'interesting' Steve Davis in his blog).

Terry

Hi Terry,how far you live from Markham,if you dont mind Im asking.

[Particle Physics]

Hi Terry,
I agree that being stable and comfortable is a big thing as you say. However, I've tried other stances with less success and they were more comfortable to be honest. If the lower body changes position with a different stance, then the upper body is also in a different position; the torso, arms and head, so that when we bend down, our arms/shoulders and head have moved. This is bound to affect sighting and the way we play the shot IMO, just as it does in golf or shooting. If it doesn't affect the shot, then why do coaches now recommend the square stance, the most uncomfortable stance there is and one (which you pointed out previously) leads to aches in the hips and knees? The boxer stance is the most comfortable and it's just as stable as square on, and I noticed that Andrew Green prefers this stance, but top pros don't. It seems to me that folk use the square stance so that the right leg anchors the shot and pulls the body into the line of the shot; torso, head, cueing arm. I've seen some folk adopt a stance where their legs are in the line of the shot with their right foot square to the line of the shot. It looks awful and their game is very limited (that's being kind) so stance must make a difference to the shot, it can't just be about comfort and stability. Otherwise, why did Steve Davis, Hendry, and Jimmy White change their stances during their careers?

Regards, Simon.

[Particle Physics]

* Terry
Perhaps I've made a mistake here about the effects of stance? Can you confirm something about the square on stance for me. Does it involve the right foot being on the line of the shot, or merely parallel to the line of the shot, say to the right of the line of the shot as one looks vertically down from the cue? This is much more comfortable. Actually on the line of the shot with the foot pointing directly forwards really aches. It's hard to tell on Andrew Green's video about this matter.
Regards, Simon.

[nrage]

I think, provided you get the same part of the foot on the line of the shot consistently, and bend from the hips by the same amount, your upper body should always be in the same position relative to the line of the shot - which is actually the key issue/consideration.

It doesn't actually matter where you put the foot, or where you point it, provided that it's consistent and it consistently places the upper body (and thus arms including bridge and cueing arm) in the same place for every shot. If you use a chest contact point, it's this you want to get on the line of the shot every time.

I played with the back foot along the line of the shot for a long while, and found it slightly uncomfortable and also that it meant my back foot hip was in the way of my grip hand. Turning my toes just slightly outwards (without moving the basic position of the foot) opens my hips and allows me to get them out the way, as well as being much more comfortable. Give it a go.

The key (for most things in snooker) is consistency.

[Terry Davidson]

joejoe:

I am located about 25km north of Guelph, just north of Elora. I will be at Shooters Sat through Wed though for the Canadians.

particle:

I agree a different stance might be helping you to bring yourself more into line or else changes your set-up to something that you are able to use better and more consistently, but it still isn't the actual stance that's doing it but rather you are now forcing yourself into an alignment that better suits you. Six of one, half dozen of the other so there's nothing really wrong with it as long as it's comfortable.

Most coaches will teach it's much better to have some part of the straight leg foot directly underneath the grip hand when in the address position. I teach using the laces or arch of the right foot (for right-handers) and also I also teach to point the toes outwards from the line of the shot a bit to relieve pressure on the ankle and knee joints. Young players can get away with pointing the foot directly down the line of the shot and a lot of players argue that this keeps everything inline better however I don't think it's that important a technique point and it will generate problems later in life in the knee especially, but also sometimes the ankle.

I also teach the same with the left foot, have it pointed outwards a bit. I find pointing the feet outwards is more comfortable and also provides more stability for the upper body against sideways movement, which will automatically take the butt of the cue off-line.

To repeat, in the address position the right forearm should hang down at 90degrees directly pointed to the floor. Also the right foot (laces or arch) should be directly underneath the grip hand. This can be anywhere from toes to heel but that right foot is not only the anchor for the stance and is always placed first on the line of the shot before anything else happens and provides the eventual alignment for a player's set-up. The placement of the right (straight leg) foot is very important as it forms the basis and foundation for everything. However, comfort is the over-riding consideration here and a player should in the first instance be comfortable but I've never found a player who when using the square stance and pointing both feet outwards just a bit getting any discomfort in his stance.

Terry


Terry

[Particle Physics]

Thankyou Nrage and Terry for your replies, it's good to have advice from experienced players. I've found that today, having the R foot about 3 inches to the right of the cue appears to offer a stable platform and also one which offers a platform for accurate cueing. My R foot is pointed slightly out, let's say 5mins past the hour. It's still a bit of an experiment for me, in these early days, to find what I feel is comfortable, accurate and enjoyable, which is the most important aspect for an amateur I reckon.

As you say Nrage, chest position is really important, and I'm cueing so that the cue touches the chest about an inch to the right of my right nipple. I'm also trying to keep the head up more and with being lower down now (with good hips bend and the chest lowering on to the cue, not bringing the cue up to the chest!) I've noticed that I'm seeing the balls fuller. My bridge arm is also lower, with the left shoulder almost on the table. This appears to make long potting easier and more accurate. Sometimes I forget to do these things as they're not totally natural yet.

Once I'm in position, my cueing consists first of addressing the cue ball with a still cue to finish lining up the correct angle (this should pretty much already be done by getting into the right footholds and dropping the body into the correct line). I try and visualise the object ball going into the pocket and derive the correct angle and relationship with the white ball/object ball from this stare. Then it's a few feathers from white to object ball/pocket with a final look at the object ball on backswing and through the shot.

It's a bit long winded at times, deliberately going through all these new coaching tips at the table address but I guess there's no other way. I'll just keep trying in the hope of making progress in time.

Have a nice weekend gents. ;-)

[Particle Physics]

Good luck in the competition Terry! Tell us all about it next week.

[Terry Davidson]

particle:

Having your right foot OUTSIDE the butt of the cue means you are probably (or should be anyway) twisting your hips to the left a little more in order to get your hip/trousers out of the line of the cue when you backswing. Ideally there should be around 2-3" between the back of the grip hand thumb and the trousers to ensure good clearance. (Hendry in his prime had about 6-8" but that's another story).

This little extra twist of the hips is likely putting you into a much better alignment than if you had your foot right under the cue but as I say it doesn't really matter as long as you are comfortable and stable and you are not hitting your trouser pocket with the back of the thumb. It most probably brigns the cue a little more towards your right armpit and a little further away from your right nipple which is actually a GOOD thing!

Turning the feet out a bit doesn't matter at all to the actual technique or alignment and is only done to take the strain off the knee joint primarily and the ankle joint too, plus it also depends on each player's physique, like for instance someone like Stephen Lee who is quite a bit overweight will twist the hips a bit more than a slim player like Robertson or Williams in order to get the clearance he needs and also to get the cue further towards the armpit to allow for more follow-through.

But all of this is just minor stuff. The most important is staying absolutely still, drawing the cue back slow & straight, delivering the cue straight and 'driving' (accelerating) through the cueball until the hand hits the chest. If you also drop your elbow a bit on a longer backswing and then drop it a bit more at the end of the delivery and drop that elbow straight down then you will have no problems improving, and improving quickly if you do any dedicated and defined solo practice.

Terry

[Particle Physics]

GREAT advice Terry, grand. Get back to your tournament! Good luck mate.

[Particle Physics]

Hi Terry, how are the Canadians go? I just had a glance at the website; a whole week of snooker, grand. Good luck in your Group F matches buddy.

I thought about your kind advice, and retried the square on stance, with the R ankle shot in line (R foot at about 3 minutes past 12. To take the stress off the knee and ankle and make the whole thing a bit more comfortable, I stuck my R bum cheek out. When I leaned forward, I noticed that it was easier to get the left shoulder down and the underside of the L arm on the table (I seem to favour a straight L arm). It's a bit weird because as a bloke, sticking your bum out isn't usual if you know what I mean. My right leg was slightly leaning forward and the whole experience felt kind of 'pointy', like my body is pointing down from top right (cueing elbow) to bottom left (bridge hand). This position definitely yields more body in line of shot. Getting into the position is novel to say the least, it seems to involve planting the back heel so that the cue is a few inches short of the contact point (placing the cue on the R hip, and measuring from the hip to the ball) with the R foot underneath the cue, ankle in line. And in one movement, locking the knee joint into position, and shoving the R bum cheek out, like you want to show it off to the world, then 1/2 a step forward/outwards (a bit to the left) with the left foot, then L shoulder down, arm straight, forearm flatdown on the table. Head up so that it's possible to bring the object ball pocket into clear focus no matter how far away. The cue naturally falls into line, over the R ankle once down on the shot. Once down, if I remove my bridge hand, I fall slowly forwards; the 'few inches short of the ball from the cue on hip line-up' seems to yield a weight forward down the the third part of the tripod (bridge hand) that you recommended to another player recently.

One further point, the whole position (for potting and shotmaking) seems better when adopting the reverse bend in the spine, ala Hendry. I guess that's why Stephen did it? It's a very interesting stance and body set-up, though I have to say, intuitively, it first feels completely wrong and un-natural. I will persist with it, because it does appear to produce consistent line and length and potting of all types, long, big angles, down the rails and short potting in the balls. If you have any tips on refining this stance, I'd be most grateful.

One further thing, I tried the same routine but with cue over the big toe of the right foot, with the R foot at 3mins past the hour. This yields a position which is more comfortable, and the cue is more under the R arm pit than previously, but is it advisable to do this, is it as stable? the cue has definitely moved a few inches to the R, and hangs 6-8 inches off the right hip, more like the position that Hendry used to adopt as a young player, as you mentioned previously.

Sorry if this is a bit basic for you, and long winded, but it's hard to describe in words everything that goes on with set-up.

Terry, is there an intermediate coaching book you could recommend please?

Cheers mate.

[alabadi]

I have been looking at my stance lately and really wanted to almost illiminate it as a problem with my accuracy and potting. i have tried different stance positions from time to time but i have almost every time come back to the boxer stance. it feels more comfortable and i have less pain on my knees which have been a problem for my due to three operations on the ligaments through injuries.

i have been analysing it in detail because i always thought that it was my stance that was letting me down when i play a bad shot or i feel that i am not in line with the shot. i took a video of me playing a straight pink into the top left pocket from close by the blue spot on the right hand side of the table. i took the shot five times and then uploaded the video to Kinovea so i can analyse the video.

to be honest i was suprised with the results, i seem to be planting my feet on the same spot the angle of my feet seem the same and the distance between my legs also look the same, with very minor differences i couldn't really see anything to worry about.

i will add a link to a video i uploaded to youtube, its only the first two shots because that is all i could show with the software, i have added some of the tools from kinovea that shows the angle of the feet and i marked the position of the feet and the distance between my legs, i synchronised the two shots so the start together. if i didn't know better it looks like the same shot done twice, however i can asure you that these are two seperate shots.

if you look very closely you may see minor differences anyway here is the link http://youtu.be/56MGB1milgI

if anyone has any comments on the video i would welcome the feedback

Alabbadi

[Particle Physics]

Today, I think I finally found the stance which suits me. I watched a video of Ronnie yesterday and noticed how comfortable he looked standing at the table, how comfortable his cue action was, and as a result how much in the flow he looked. It was easy. To replicate or come close to his stance, I hold the cue on my right hip (standing square to the shot, feet apart a bit more than shoulder width) and point it at the cue ball, about two/three balls short of the cue ball. My right foot is pointing to 5mins past the shot line, my left foot parallel to the shot line. I then grip the cue in the V position and go down. My bridge arm is slightly bent but not greatly. I bend my left knee to get low down and lock my right knee so the leg is straight. Because I've lined the shot up from my hip but 4-6 inches short, when I go down, I have to lean forward, so that maybe 10% of my weight is on the bridge hand (as Terry and Nrage advise). I'm not totally arm over cue nor am I chest over cue, but somewhere in between (like Ronnie). My stance is a bit wider than ROS's but the principle is the same.

Using this stance and cue action today, I potted a lot of long balls from different angles, and I got the power on like never before. I tried some short pots too, e.g. the Yellow ball, and managed to screw down the table over the black spot and back up again to be able to pot the Green. People were asking me if I was on a team! Of course I'm not, I'm just practising set up and cueing I said. They didn't believe I'd only been playing a few months because I looked like a really good player (lol). This is the power of good technique. Practising things wrongly will only multiple errors and frustration. Practising good technique leads to happiness and success. There have been some frustrating days and today was a nice change.

This forum is magical and the lovely people herein have transformed my game and made me think about it in a whole new light. As I said to one guy who thought the potting of long balls down cushions, across the table and so on was grand, I'm not actually bothered about the pots except that they prove the technique is correct, that's what it's all about at the moment.

[Particle Physics]

* I would never recommend copying any one player, but I thought, what the hell, I'll try and do it a bit like ronnie, I'm fed up of inaccuracy from the very comfortable boxer stance, and I like the accuracy of totally square but it's so hard on the joints, let's try something that is a cross between the two. After 3 hours, I didn't feel tired and achey and I could have gone on for more. The other great thing is I now have a ruler to enable me to copy the set-up over and over again. I can use the hip to line up cushion shots too, I just have to shorted the cue lining up/going down. I must now make a determined effort to make sure I do this routine for the next few months, even if it looks silly. Once it becomes natural, I can do it without lining the cue up at all, I will naturally plant my feet in the right holes.