Fakes from China

[denja]

Just wondered are any of the fakes from China are just as good as the originals (If not better) remember many years ago the Japanese started making look alike and fake guitars it turned out many of them were better than the originals from the U.S.A. and now command a high price.

[Maverick54]

Not so much a fake but I have recently seen 2 genuine O'min cues from China. As many will know O'min cues from Thailand are reknowned for there quality.
A while back an agent in Mainland China got the rights to sell O'min cues on the mainland and it appears they are also now making cues in China under licence from O'min. They have genuine O'min badges and O'min athentification certificates but the quality of the spliceing is absolutley dreadful. http://www.omin.hk/en/index.asp
These cues are the ones being sold as cheap packages on http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PIECE-OMI...ht_7202wt_1030 that was mentioned in a thread a couple of weeks back.
I'm surprised that O'min would risk their good reputation in this way but it appears quality has gone out the window now.

Both guys who bought these left a possitive feedback and said they were ok for the money. 2 weeks later they each received import bills from the courier TNT for just under £30 each. Neither is very happy.

[vmax4steve]

Just wondered are any of the fakes from China are just as good as the originals (If not better) remember many years ago the Japanese started making look alike and fake guitars it turned out many of them were better than the originals from the U.S.A. and now command a high price.

Not quite true there denja. There is a difference between fakes and copies. I have one of these guitars myself, an Antoria Les Paul Custom in black with gold hardware.
These guitars were so good and so close to the Gibson originals that Gibson sued the company for copyright and Antoria were forced to make subtle changes to their design. Headstock was changed and instead of a glued in neck they moved to bolt on. An original example of an Antoria Les Paul with the glued in neck can command over £500, mine has the bolt on neck but still it sounds and looks great and for those in the know it is obviously not a Gibson.
BTW an original 1959 Gibson Les Paul will set you back nearer £50,000 + as 1959 is known as the best year for the Les Paul model, something to do with the magnets used in the pick ups that are unique and give that sound which is unlike what went before when the model had single coil pick ups, and the ones that came after with different magnets.

Here is the late great Gary Moore showing just what a fantastic sound the 1959 Gibson Les Paul has www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oouMDQAIk

Now if I won the lottery and bought myself a '59 Les Paul there is no way in the world that I could make it sound like this, but Gary could have picked up my Antoria and come bloody close.

Now if Antoria had badged their Les Paul as a Gibson then that would have been fakery, as it was they simply copied. I remember hearing in a documentary about the british motorbike industry that the word in japanese for 'design' is the same word as it is for 'copy'.

[denja]

Not quite true there denja. There is a difference between fakes and copies. I have one of these guitars myself, an Antoria Les Paul Custom in black with gold hardware.
These guitars were so good and so close to the Gibson originals that Gibson sued the company for copyright and Antoria were forced to make subtle changes to their design. Headstock was changed and instead of a glued in neck they moved to bolt on. An original example of an Antoria Les Paul with the glued in neck can command over £500, mine has the bolt on neck but still it sounds and looks great and for those in the know it is obviously not a Gibson.
BTW an original 1959 Gibson Les Paul will set you back nearer £50,000 + as 1959 is known as the best year for the Les Paul model, something to do with the magnets used in the pick ups that are unique and give that sound which is unlike what went before when the model had single coil pick ups, and the ones that came after with different magnets.

Here is the late great Gary Moore showing just what a fantastic sound the 1959 Gibson Les Paul has www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oouMDQAIk

Now if I won the lottery and bought myself a '59 Les Paul there is no way in the world that I could make it sound like this, but Gary could have picked up my Antoria and come bloody close.

Now if Antoria had badged their Les Paul as a Gibson then that would have been fakery, as it was they simply copied. I remember hearing in a documentary about the british motorbike industry that the word in japanese for 'design' is the same word as it is for 'copy'.

I think the early Tokia guitars had a law suit against them from Fender.

[ADR147]

Not so much a fake but I have recently seen 2 genuine O'min cues from China. As many will know O'min cues from Thailand are reknowned for there quality.
A while back an agent in Mainland China got the rights to sell O'min cues on the mainland and it appears they are also now making cues in China under licence from O'min. They have genuine O'min badges and O'min athentification certificates but the quality of the spliceing is absolutley dreadful. http://www.omin.hk/en/index.asp
These cues are the ones being sold as cheap packages on http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1PIECE-OMI...ht_7202wt_1030 that was mentioned in a thread a couple of weeks back.
I'm surprised that O'min would risk their good reputation in this way but it appears quality has gone out the window now.

Both guys who bought these left a possitive feedback and said they were ok for the money. 2 weeks later they each received import bills from the courier TNT for just under £30 each. Neither is very happy.

I was told o'min have nothing to do with them at all. I have seen some superb quality parris copies but they are still copies, also i am told the dave coutts fakes are very good but once again why would you want to own a fake?

[sberry]

I suppose it's the same as a genuine Lacoste shirt and a fake one - they both look the same and do the same.

The top hand made cue brands have said they either buy cues in and finish them or that their cues are made here in their workshops by someone employed by them - what difference a cue made by Joe Anonymous in a workshop here or Joe Anonymous in a workshop in China, both by someone who isn't the name on the badge?

Nowt wrong with wanting the best names, it's like golfers who want all the gear because they love the game but use it to hit balls into the woods, if you can play the game you can play it with any decent cue, if you can't a decent cue won't make you play the game. Yes, it can make minor psychological differences to be happy with the real top brand name but it doesn't make you play better.

[ADR147]

I suppose it's the same as a genuine Lacoste shirt and a fake one - they both look the same and do the same.

The top hand made cue brands have said they either buy cues in and finish them or that their cues are made here in their workshops by someone employed by them - what difference a cue made by Joe Anonymous in a workshop here or Joe Anonymous in a workshop in China, both by someone who isn't the name on the badge?

Nowt wrong with wanting the best names, it's like golfers who want all the gear because they love the game but use it to hit balls into the woods, if you can play the game you can play it with any decent cue, if you can't a decent cue won't make you play the game. Yes, it can make minor psychological differences to be happy with the real top brand name but it doesn't make you play better.

not the same at all. - the top names here will still use the best quality woods / brass the fake cues are dyed rosewood etc. there is a big difference between trying to find an economically viable way of producing a top quality product and making something look like a top quality product.

[denja]

I suppose it's the same as a genuine Lacoste shirt and a fake one - they both look the same and do the same.

The top hand made cue brands have said they either buy cues in and finish them or that their cues are made here in their workshops by someone employed by them - what difference a cue made by Joe Anonymous in a workshop here or Joe Anonymous in a workshop in China, both by someone who isn't the name on the badge?

Nowt wrong with wanting the best names, it's like golfers who want all the gear because they love the game but use it to hit balls into the woods, if you can play the game you can play it with any decent cue, if you can't a decent cue won't make you play the game. Yes, it can make minor psychological differences to be happy with the real top brand name but it doesn't make you play better.

A very wise observation sometimes I think us snooker players (Myself Included) have more money than sense, how long does it take to come to that awful conclusion that its not the cue that is rubbish its "YOU" !!!!! A player walks into the club on Tournament night (His wife has taken the car with his cue in the boot off to visit her sister 200 miles away no chance of getting cue back) he selects a cue from the rack and proceeds to win the Tournament outright "Been there seen it got the tee shirt I was the one he knocked out of the final. I had my all singing all dancing bells and whistles hand spliced with mammoth ivory sacred boo boo wood splices and cue tip from the buttocks leather of the rare purple rhino, but it was beaten by a humble machine spliced of unsure breeding.

[sberry]

Don't disagree ADR about the difficulty in making fakes and genuines and costs involved but the point is it doesn't matter if the butt is dyed rosewood from mexico or the best quality makassar ebony from an isolated Indonesian island lovingly grown by an untouched pygmy tribe fertilised with civet dung, the cue will play the same.

Same with 'ultimate' shafts, fibre ferrules and special tips, 99% of people who play the game could not tell the difference if they were blindfolded and would be beaten by a half decent player with a rack cue.

I still agree though, like clothes and cars and anything consumer related it's up to the buyer and if the buyers want something enough they will make the market prices for it and people who sell have a huge audience of people willing to buy because they want the real deal or because they want others to know they can have it.

[vmax4steve]

I think the early Tokia guitars had a law suit against them from Fender.

True, and Tokai went out of business for many years but are back now making great guitars for little money.
There is also the matter of top western companies allowing their goods to be made under license in the far east. Martin guitars of the USA are made under license in japan under the Sigma brand. I have a DR35 Sigma acoustic that cost £400, the equivalent Martin would be about £2000.
Now I would have no issues at all with John Parris having cues made under license in China being badged under a chinese name, costing half the price of his UK hand mades as long as the production techniques matched his UK operation.
You would then know that you were getting a handmade cue to Parris standards that was cheaper simply due to labour costs. Badging such cues as Parris would be misleading IMO.

Then again it's not the cue, it's the person that's holding it. I watched the Jimmy White sports life stories on itvplayer yesterday and noticed something regarding Hendry's Powerglide. After he cleared up to beat Jimmy in the final frame of their 1994 WSC final, he rolled his cue across the baulk end of the table and it wobbled along the bed, bent as a dogs hind leg, but look what he could do with it.

[arbitrage]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-deserted.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-speeding.html

[denja]

True, and Tokai went out of business for many years but are back now making great guitars for little money.
There is also the matter of top western companies allowing their goods to be made under license in the far east. Martin guitars of the USA are made under license in japan under the Sigma brand. I have a DR35 Sigma acoustic that cost £400, the equivalent Martin would be about £2000.
Now I would have no issues at all with John Parris having cues made under license in China being badged under a chinese name, costing half the price of his UK hand mades as long as the production techniques matched his UK operation.
You would then know that you were getting a handmade cue to Parris standards that was cheaper simply due to labour costs. Badging such cues as Parris would be misleading IMO.

Then again it's not the cue, it's the person that's holding it. I watched the Jimmy White sports life stories on itvplayer yesterday and noticed something regarding Hendry's Powerglide. After he cleared up to beat Jimmy in the final frame of their 1994 WSC final, he rolled his cue across the baulk end of the table and it wobbled along the bed, bent as a dogs hind leg, but look what he could do with it.

There was a period when Gibson were taken over by or amalgamated with a company called NORLIN 1969 - 1986 and boy did they turn out some crap ! think they were using up spare bits they had in the warehouse even the icon jazz guitar the Gibson 175 D did not escape the low quality output , if you have a early Tokia 335 type guitar you have a top rate guitar that surpassed Gibson in every way. Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Martin Taylor. GREAT !