Potting

[bluenose1940]

I have been watching a lot of the Barry Stark videos and have learned a lot from them.

However, I became quite confused with one of them on potting.

I have read a lot of thread/posts on here that refer to 'Ghost Ball' and 'Back of Ball' sighting when potting. In one of Barry's videos he specifically states NOT to aim for a particular spot on the object ball but you should play 'the line of the shot'. This can be seen in Barry's 'Potting Line Part 2' video.

I wonder if some of you more experienced members could explain this a little more clearly to this grey haired old codger please.

Many thanks.

[mythman69]

line of aim.jpg

A picture tells a thousand words.

If you aim at the point of contact rather than along the line of aim you will miss.

I hope this helps.

[Terry Davidson]

I haven't watched his coaching videos but my question would be...'just exactly how does a player determine the line of the shot'?

Somehow you have to determine what the line of aim is and I believe the most natural is by using the 'ghost ball' method or at least determining the point on the object ball where contact has to be made to pot that ball but using this second method we are still left with the 'aim-off' problem as we are trying to control 2 spheres so except for dead-in pots the actual line of aim is NEVER directly at the point on the object ball that has to be hit by the leading edge of the cueball.

For the most part this knowledge is really gained by experience from hours of practice though as even though I advocate ghost ball I don't really imagine mentally a ghost cueball placed against the object ball (or at least I don't think I do).

[bluenose1940]

Yes I have always worked on the basis of looking at the back of the ball, i.e. the furthest point on the object ball from the pocket. The more time you spend at the table, the more experience you will gain. I can't imagine that there are many 'true' quarter and 'half-ball' shots, most of them will be quarter ball or half ball plus or minus a millimetre or so or 1/32nd or 1/16th whichever you prefer and, I think that it's getting that smidgen difference right in your mind that determines if you will get the pot or not.

At the moment, I am really struggling with my game and so I'm off now to get a bit of practice in to see if I can see where I'm going wrong.

[GeordieDS]

I'm off now to get a bit of practice in to see if I can see where I'm going wrong.

I've been doing that for thirty years and i still have no idea, gl

[Big Splash!]

I have been watching a lot of the Barry Stark videos and have learned a lot from them.

However, I became quite confused with one of them on potting.

I have read a lot of thread/posts on here that refer to 'Ghost Ball' and 'Back of Ball' sighting when potting. In one of Barry's videos he specifically states NOT to aim for a particular spot on the object ball but you should play 'the line of the shot'. This can be seen in Barry's 'Potting Line Part 2' video.

I wonder if some of you more experienced members could explain this a little more clearly to this grey haired old codger please.

Many thanks.

If you are having problems with angles you can try a few things. Have a good stare at the ball into the pocket. Then return to the cue ball, stand back a few feet and try and visualise the correct angle to pot the ball into the pocket. I like to think about how much of the ball I need to hit, that is really how much of the ball I need to eclipse (a form of using the ghost ball one could argue). If it doesn't look 10/10 and inspire confidence, move a bit to the R, or a bit to the L. Check again. Potting the ball with your eyes is essential for you to believe in the shot. If the shot doesn't look 10/10 when you get down, get back up and start again. For long potting, some players like to bend over and really stare at the CB to object ball to pocket, Mark Williams was keen on this. And other players like Hendry, do the visualisation before the shot and down on the shot; he liked to stare at the object ball, then the pocket, then back to the CB while he was feathering. Even the really talented like Ronnie do a short form of visualisation. It's very important to believe in the shot before you get down, otherwise you won't commit to the shot 100% and that's when a lot of misses occur.

If the ball is bang on the cushion, you can simply aim for an angle that results in the CB hitting the OB and cushion at exactly the same moment. Or you can play the angle that the CB makes to the OB to the pocket (pretending the cushion isn't there); the same as playing any shot that isn't straight.

Lastly, good on you for playing in your 70s. You must love the game and that alone makes you a winner. I hope I can still bend over a table at your age when it comes to me. Good luck.

[pottr]

For the most part this knowledge is really gained by experience from hours of practice though as even though I advocate ghost ball I don't really imagine mentally a ghost cueball placed against the object ball (or at least I don't think I do).

That really is all there is to it... It's just something you pick up from practice.

[bluenose1940]

Great replies as usual from my fellow members, thank you. Thank you for your input Big Splash! I have read your reply about 5 times already and it's sinking in, I will continue to read and digest.

I have just joined a new private club and a lot of the players are my age and some are older too, a few are younger. I have only been there for about 5 weeks and I have noticed that my game is totally different to the vast majority of the members there. For instance, if there is a easyish pot on the Green off its spot, most of them will roll it in and then either look at a long red if there is one on or, they will attempt a long safety back to baulk. Given the same scenario, I will screw the cue ball off the Green and back up the table to the Reds. problem for me is that I'm only getting 3 to 3.5 pots out of 5 at the moment and so will leave the opponent an easy red if I miss the Green! Just yesterday I had a nice angle on the Blue and decided it was perfect to split the pack, went for it, got it and, was perfectly on the next red at the back of the pack, played the Red with screw and came round nicely for the Pink. Many of my opponents would simply roll the Blue in and then see where they go from there.
I need to become more consistent with my potting and move away from the current 60-40 success ratio. I do tend to get frustrated with myself at times and, I think that a good move will be to put the last (poor) shot out of my mind more often as at the moment I do tend to dwell on it a bit!
Perhaps at almost 76, I'm expecting too much of myself and should be thankful for being able to play at my age, as Big splash! mentioned in his post.
Anyway chaps, thanks again for your input.

[bluenose1940]

Well folks, I went to the club on Thursday morning and tried a couple of things.

Firstly I moved my bridge hand closer to the cue ball, I always played with a 9 or 10 inch gap previously. I changed this to 6 or 7 inches. I also moved by cue hand further up the cue. Whereas before my hand was a couple of inches from the end of the butt, I now hold it about 5 inches further up, so about 6 to 7 inches from the butt end. My playing partner tells me that my elbow is in more of an upright position at the address.

On Thursday afternoon I went to my new club and played all of my games using the new methods. I didn't lose a game and, I played another new member to whom I had to give a 2 Black start and, I beat him on the Black. Overall I am very pleased with the new address and, fingers crossed it will continue to pay dividends.

P.S. I currently use a 58" cue. Do you experienced chaps think I might benefit from using a shorter one? I am 5' 6" tall.

[Big Splash!]

Great work. 5-6'' sounds short though, you're probably getting some chalk on your bridge if you power up? I reduced mine down from a huge 11'' to 8-9''. Selby has something similar. I'm gripping at 55'' now of my 58'' cue. At 5'6'' tall you should maybe be at 54'' on the cue, with a 8'' Bridge to ball (BtB). If the BtB is too short, say 5'', you won't have much cue to get through the ball and develop power. The most important thing is that your forearm makes a 90 degree angle to the cue as you begin to feather and that your forearm is upright; i.e. your forearm makes a 90 degree angle in both planes, it's standing up. If it does, and you've got a short BtB, then where you have your hand on the cue doesn't really matter I guess, except for knowing where it should be for consistency and feel each time.

If you carry on with a shorter BtB, you should find after a few months that ironically, you may develop more screw, and also better CB control. At least that's what WS coaches say. I've found this to be accurate after practising it over a few years. You'll need to stick with it and usually, CB control and power gets worse to begin with as you adapt.

*Warning; though most folk do benefit from a shorter BtB and 'short cueing', some actually suit a longer BtB, e.g. Jimmy White. The only way to find out is trial and error.

The only reason to change the cue would be if you find that where you grip is now too narrow a piece of timber in your hand? And if you feel that now you've moved up the butt, the balance and feel of the cue doesn't feel right anymore and perhaps the shaft feels too thin on your bridge? I did consider the same idea as you but I love the feel of my cue too much. Hendry used to have his hand up his butt and it didn't stop him doing well. But there may be a case for a shorter cue if you want the fat end of the butt in your hand. Go try one and see. Pub bats tend to be shorter. That could be a cheap trial if you don't have a cue shop near you or a mate with a short cue.

[bluenose1940]

Hi again Big Splash! I was mistaken with the figures in my earlier post. To give you more specific figures, the 'V' of my bridge hand is 8.5inches from the cue ball at address and the back of my hand (i.e. my little finger) is 52.5 inches from the tip of the cue.

I do find this very comfortable and my potting improved considerably, including long pots.

You said "Hendry used to have his hand up his butt" This made me smile.

Thanks again for your input, much appreciated.

[DeanH]

bluenose - if you do consider a shorter cue; BEFORE doing anything try other shorter cues from the club or other players to test

[tomlimcj]

don't waste $ on a shorter cue. just play on with that same stance, even if it means a bit more butt is sticking out.
save that $ for some beers instead.

[Big Splash!]

Hi again Big Splash! I was mistaken with the figures in my earlier post. To give you more specific figures, the 'V' of my bridge hand is 8.5inches from the cue ball at address and the back of my hand (i.e. my little finger) is 52.5 inches from the tip of the cue.

I do find this very comfortable and my potting improved considerably, including long pots.

You said "Hendry used to have his hand up his butt" This made me smile.

Thanks again for your input, much appreciated.

If I didn't have a Powerglide Purist with a 34mm diameter butt, I'd probably be looking for a new cue as well. I've been lucky that the butt is still wide enough at the 54/55'' mark for me to grip and cue in comfort; it doesn't feel too small or slippy or thin. To begin with, it felt really weird gripping the cue at a place with a much smaller diameter at 29mm. Oddly, this is the kind of butt width a lot of players like at the end of the cue, so maybe I was gripping something far too wide to begin with, say 33mm near the end of the cue. Anyway, shorter cueing has led to improved CB control in my case, I feel more in control of the cue. Soft screws/bit of top/soft stuns are much easier and it's easier to float the CB around with plain ball as well.

However, this may not be the case on your cue. Would you be able to measure the diameter of the cue (with some callipers) where you grip it at the moment or maybe use a tape to measure the circumference?

[bluenose1940]

If I didn't have a Powerglide Purist with a 34mm diameter butt, I'd probably be looking for a new cue as well. I've been lucky that the butt is still wide enough at the 54/55'' mark for me to grip and cue in comfort; it doesn't feel too small or slippy or thin. To begin with, it felt really weird gripping the cue at a place with a much smaller diameter at 29mm. Oddly, this is the kind of butt width a lot of players like at the end of the cue, so maybe I was gripping something far too wide to begin with, say 33mm near the end of the cue. Anyway, shorter cueing has led to improved CB control in my case, I feel more in control of the cue. Soft screws/bit of top/soft stuns are much easier and it's easier to float the CB around with plain ball as well.

However, this may not be the case on your cue. Would you be able to measure the diameter of the cue (with some callipers) where you grip it at the moment or maybe use a tape to measure the circumference?

When I was holding my cue more or less with just about an inch of butt showing at the back, the measurement at the 'V' of thumb and forefinger was a fraction over 28mm. Having moved my hand further up the butt, as per my earlier post, the measurement at this point is 26.5mm so not really any noticeable difference. the measurements have been taken with a digital caliper.