Cue position when applying side

[Particle Physics]

In Frank Callan's book he has a chapter on Doug Mountjoy and how Frank coached him for a summer and then Doug went out an won the UK Open or some ranking tournament, which he hadn't done in years.

Frank explain that Doug, when using side, would just move the tip of the cue over, thus taking the cue off the line of aim and this was one of the main technique flaws Frank corrected.

I can't find my copy of the book right now but he does give a pretty detaled explanation of how NOT to apply side by moving the cue off-line

Terry

I have no clue as a learner about using side. I used it last Sunday, to run the white from the black up to the yellow to try and split the yellow and a red up as advised by my friend/coach. It nearly worked. Ordinarilly I wouldn't have attempted such a sophisticated shot as side is a scary thing but I trust this guy, and he's a good league player. He told me to play the pot with side, so that's what I did; moving the cue across an 1/8th of an inch, keeping the shot angle the same. If you use more than a 1/2 a tips worth of side (from centre of ball) the white does throw IMO, and then I think that you don't necessarily angle across the cue ball but again, parallel aim the cue, but actually change the angle between cue ball and object ball, accommodating the throw by aiming the cue ball off the natural angle.

Is this right Terry/Nrage?

Some types of tip do throw the ball more than others in my experience. If you play with a lot of side, is this something you should think of? If a player isn't going to contact a cushion with the white ball, why apply side on a pot, unless it's a banana shot attempt that is?! With faster cloths, pro players need side less than with the slow cloths of yesteryear. I don't think there's any shot where one should cue across the ball is there Terry?

[alabadi]

This bloke explains it better than anyone else I've seen on youtube and he is a certified coach.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmyWVw-8C64

I like Neilmaxman and follow his tips, however i am a bit confused on this video.

when he shows the clip playing a red from the blue spot, he uses left hand side, the OB goes right of the pocket, and when he put right hand side the OB goes to the left.

with the cueball and the OB so close i fail to see how this could happen, shouldn't the cueball throw to the right when left hand side is applied therefore it will strike the OB right of the potting point , this should send the cueball left not right as in the clips.

the same should apply the otherside too with right hand side applied the OB should go right too. if he didn't adjust the potting angle that is

correct me if i'm wrong

Alabbadi

[wayync]

I like Neilmaxman and follow his tips, however i am a bit confused on this video.

when he shows the clip playing a red from the blue spot, he uses left hand side, the OB goes right of the pocket, and when he put right hand side the OB goes to the left.

with the cueball and the OB so close i fail to see how this could happen, shouldn't the cueball throw to the right when left hand side is applied therefore it will strike the OB right of the potting point , this should send the cueball left not right as in the clips.

the same should apply the otherside too with right hand side applied the OB should go right too. if he didn't adjust the potting angle that is

correct me if i'm wrong

Alabbadi

Yes, I like his videos but the part where he was showing the shot off the blue spot confused me too.

He clearly states that the cue should be parallel, but when you see him cueing up on the white you can definitely see that his cue is at an angle. You can tell because @5:38 his cue shaft is touching the left side of the pocket. If applying siding was parallel, then his cue should be over the right side of the pocket, the same side as his tip.

what is going on here?

[wayync]

I like Neilmaxman and follow his tips, however i am a bit confused on this video.

when he shows the clip playing a red from the blue spot, he uses left hand side, the OB goes right of the pocket, and when he put right hand side the OB goes to the left.

with the cueball and the OB so close i fail to see how this could happen, shouldn't the cueball throw to the right when left hand side is applied therefore it will strike the OB right of the potting point , this should send the cueball left not right as in the clips.

the same should apply the otherside too with right hand side applied the OB should go right too. if he didn't adjust the potting angle that is

correct me if i'm wrong

Alabbadi

Yes, I like his videos but the part where he was showing the shot off the blue spot confused me too.

He clearly states that the cue should be parallel, but when you see him cueing up on the white you can definitely see that his cue is at an angle. You can tell because @5:38 his cue shaft is touching the left side of the pocket. If applying siding was parallel, then his cue should be over the right side of the pocket, the same side as his tip.

what is going on here?

[nrage]

Thanks for all the replies.

So I assume the majority say the correct way is parallel.

It's funny though. For a dead straight pot I can pot the ball using side if I angle the cue.

I find it next to impossible to pot a dead straight ball with my cue parallel.

This makes perfect sense - if this is the first time you've tried to do it

When you play with side you get 2 effects on the cue ball, squirt and swerve, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms&feature=plcp

Imagine playing a shot with right hand side, and a parallel cue. The actual direction the white initially takes (squirt) will be a straight line on a slight angle left of the actual line of aim, over some distance (which changes based on shot power, cue elevation etc) the white will swerve in an arc back to the right. So, at some point it will be back exactly on the line of aim this exact point is what everyone playing with side is trying to judge, because this exact point should coincide with when the white hits the object ball. As you can imagine, getting this right is hard and takes experience, practice, and getting to know the cue and cloth - as both alter the effects.

When you play with an angled cue you are effectively changing the line of aim - or rather, try thinking of it like this for the purposes of this discussion. If you imagine that instead of an angled cue, you actually have a parallel cue on a different line of aim (to the right of the real one) you have a situation which is identical to the parallel cue one described above, but with the whole system (you, cue, white) rotated to the right. So, the same thing as described above WRT squirt and swerve still happens, but, now when the white squirts to the left it could actually squirt onto the real line of aim.

That's the theory behind the "back hand english" pool "system". Because the squirt angle is relatively consistent and depends almost entirely on the mass of the cue (constant) and the bridge length (which you can make constant with practice) then you can make it squirt onto the real line of aim, consistently. I've found that it's "ok" for short range shots, because little to no swerve occurs, but over larger distances the swerve has more effect.

Ultimately, for snooker, because of the distances involved I think it's better to learn to gauge the squirt and swerve effect yourself than rely on a mechanical solution (like back hand english). However, if you still prefer an angled cue, then I suggest you find your perfect bridge length as mentioned in the back hand english video I linked earlier because this will theoretically remove the squirt effect from your shot leaving you just having to judge the swerve.

[nrage]

I like Neilmaxman and follow his tips, however i am a bit confused on this video.

when he shows the clip playing a red from the blue spot, he uses left hand side, the OB goes right of the pocket, and when he put right hand side the OB goes to the left.

with the cueball and the OB so close i fail to see how this could happen, shouldn't the cueball throw to the right when left hand side is applied therefore it will strike the OB right of the potting point , this should send the cueball left not right as in the clips.

the same should apply the otherside too with right hand side applied the OB should go right too. if he didn't adjust the potting angle that is

correct me if i'm wrong

Yeah, it looked to me like he was cueing across the white. Especially when you compare the shot with RHS vs the initial straight one he plays. The straight one isn't actually straight because he's a bit casual with it, his has to hit the white from right to left (from camera POV) to pot it center, so his cue is over to the right of the pocket (camera POV) for this shot. The cue is even further to the right for the shot with RHS, which makes me think he's cueing across the ball.

I suspect that players experienced with side unconsciously compensate for a lot of things, and that makes it very hard to demonstrate things like this.

Given the short distance and even with the low power of the shots I would have thought RHS would send the white left, and pot the object right, so I can only conclude he must have played across it to get the effects shown.

[nrage]

I have no clue as a learner about using side. I used it last Sunday, to run the white from the black up to the yellow to try and split the yellow and a red up as advised by my friend/coach. It nearly worked. Ordinarilly I wouldn't have attempted such a sophisticated shot as side is a scary thing but I trust this guy, and he's a good league player. He told me to play the pot with side, so that's what I did; moving the cue across an 1/8th of an inch, keeping the shot angle the same. If you use more than a 1/2 a tips worth of side (from centre of ball) the white does throw IMO, and then I think that you don't necessarily angle across the cue ball but again, parallel aim the cue, but actually change the angle between cue ball and object ball, accommodating the throw by aiming the cue ball off the natural angle.

Is this right Terry/Nrage?

That's what I do on the few occasions I play with side. I try to avoid using side for potting and restrict myself to using it for break and safety. I do very occasionally use it on very simple pots i.e. short range ball right in the jaws of the middle pocket type thing.

Some types of tip do throw the ball more than others in my experience. If you play with a lot of side, is this something you should think of? If a player isn't going to contact a cushion with the white ball, why apply side on a pot, unless it's a banana shot attempt that is?! With faster cloths, pro players need side less than with the slow cloths of yesteryear. I don't think there's any shot where one should cue across the ball is there Terry?

Unless the white is going to run into the cushion, or you need to swerve around an obstructing ball, then there is no need for side spin. Some people use it to "help" pot balls along the rail and it does seem to work in practice, though the theory as to why is a bit vague. I suspect many people aim these "wrong" (too thick) and the side ends up correcting it for them, it also might keep the white on the cushion longer on contact (as the spin rolls it along the cushion very slightly) ..

I'm not sure of the effect of various tips, I would guess a softer tip might mean more contact time and more squirt/throw but I'm not sure. The main theory is cue end mass determines squirt/throw and that it's fairly consistent.

[vmax4steve]

I like Neilmaxman and follow his tips, however i am a bit confused on this video.

when he shows the clip playing a red from the blue spot, he uses left hand side, the OB goes right of the pocket, and when he put right hand side the OB goes to the left.

with the cueball and the OB so close i fail to see how this could happen, shouldn't the cueball throw to the right when left hand side is applied therefore it will strike the OB right of the potting point , this should send the cueball left not right as in the clips.

the same should apply the otherside too with right hand side applied the OB should go right too. if he didn't adjust the potting angle that is

correct me if i'm wrong

Alabbadi

He's playing the shot at a gentle pace without allowing for the throw of the cue ball. As he explains with the blacks he played into the corner pockets, the cue ball throws off line, comes back onto the line in an arc before striking the object ball. Even over a short distance the cue ball will come back onto the line when the shot is played at a gentle pace, hit it hard and it doesn't have time and will then miss to the other side of the pocket. It is possible to swerve the cue ball using side over a short distance, top players do it when partially snookered by a fraction of an inch to keep the break going. Some people mistakenly believe that when playing this shot that side is being transferred to the object ball which makes the object ball throw off the cue ball at a different angle to make the pot. They are wrong, the cue ball is in fact swerving very slightly around the snookering ball over a short distance.

[vmax4steve]

There are many Certified Coaches my friend and they dont all sing from the same Hymn book. I will stick to what i know is fact!!!

We have had this conversation many times Dannyboy and you have always insisted that your 'angle the cue' technique works for you.
Tell me just how you approach a shot that you know you are going to use side for, how you judge the line of aim, how you take your stance, address the cue cue ball, apply the side and then play the shot. Give me some more detail than just 'angle the cue' as I am very interested in how this technique works as opposed to my own technique which is exactly as that shown by certified coach Neilmaxman, which I didn't learn from BTW, I first came across it in Ray Reardon's 'Classic Snooker' book.

[nrage]

He's playing the shot at a gentle pace without allowing for the throw of the cue ball. As he explains with the blacks he played into the corner pockets, the cue ball throws off line, comes back onto the line in an arc before striking the object ball. Even over a short distance the cue ball will come back onto the line when the shot is played at a gentle pace, hit it hard and it doesn't have time and will then miss to the other side of the pocket. It is possible to swerve the cue ball using side over a short distance, top players do it when partially snookered by a fraction of an inch to keep the break going. Some people mistakenly believe that when playing this shot that side is being transferred to the object ball which makes the object ball throw off the cue ball at a different angle to make the pot. They are wrong, the cue ball is in fact swerving very slightly around the snookering ball over a short distance.

Ahh.. well, that might explain it. I assumed it would not swerve quite so soon, but now I think about it, why shouldn't it start to swerve immediately.. there is no physical reason why not, just my own mental block/model. I tend to over hit most of my shots so perhaps I need to experiment with some really soft shots and get a feel for it.