Eyes Wide Shut

[vmax4steve]

One disadvantage with looking at the ob though is that if the hand follows the eyes then you will miss cut shots. This is because on cuts the middle of the white will actually not strike the ob so looking at the ob contact point can lead to you striking too thick if your hand indeed follows the eyes. Just a thought.

The hand follows the eye its true, but the information sent to the brain by the eye is what is crucial and is what keeps the cue on line. The eye sees where the cue ball is, the eye sees where the object ball is, the eye sees where the cue ball has to strike the object ball in order to pot it. All this information is sent to the brain through the eyes including the bit about where exactly the contact point is on the cue ball also. This is all done on a subconscious level so cut shots are no different to full ball shots.
To consciously think about the contact point on the cue ball could very well override this subconscious aiming and lead to pointing the cue in the wrong direction, as if it was the tip of the cue that needed to hit the contact point on the object ball.

DandyA

If you continue the way you are you will never improve beyond potting easy balls. Four years you've been on this site with a high break of 31.
What would Terry Griffiths say if you went to him with your theory and your resultant high break and say that it works for you ??

[Terry Davidson]

To get back on the original topic of eyes closed. There are a couple of simple reasons why a player would tend to pot better with his eyes closed.

1. He has lost sight of the cueball and OB and his only point of control now is his grip hand and he concentrates on having a straight backswing and delivery with no body movement. (mentioned above)

2. With the CB not in the direct vision a player will tend to drive though the cueball since the brain doesn't REALLY know exactly where the CB is and he is not tempted to start slowing the cue down as he hits the cueball. (also mentioned above)

Sorry DandyA, I think everyone else is correct and at the time of strike the eyes should ABSOLUTELY be on the object ball. This only makes common sense to me, but you're entitled to your opinion I guess but I just hope other players attempting to improve do not follow your advice on this point. I also agree with the comment above by Vmax that pros will be looking at the OB during most shots although I did see the comment by Hendry about eyes on the CB on long pots but even at the time it made no sense to me and perhaps he is analysing his own technique incorrectly

Terry

[RGCirencester]

I think that's slightly unfair on dandy. My highest breaks pretty similar to his and to be honest it's not through bad technique or lack of trying (nick Barrow used me as an example of correct technique once). I know for a fact I'm not as naturally talented as some, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing anything technically majorly wrong (not pretending for a second I'm actually perfect).

I've tried looking at the cue ball, it doesn't work for me buti feel it would be shortsighted to say it definitely won't work for everyone.
Now the only professional coach I've ever had this conversation with is Chris Henry and given his affiliation to Hendry and the comments already made about how you believe Hendry might not know exactly what he himself is doing he might not be the best example.

I do believe that the fact that you can put fairly well with your eyes closed must give some merit to the theory though.

[DandyA]

I think that's slightly unfair on dandy.

thanks for the moral support RGC ... once again, I repeat I'm not trying to say one method is right and one is wrong ... I'm trying to discuss the merits of each method ...

DandyA - If you continue the way you are you will never improve beyond potting easy balls. Four years you've been on this site with a high break of 31.

well actually vmax I've been playing snooker for about 10 years although admittedly only one evening a week, maybe 3 or 3.5hrs with 2,3 or 4 people playing ... so I get maybe 45mins to 90mins of table time and the balls are in a real mess nearly every time it's my turn ... that's the reason my high break is 31 ...

9 years of those were using object ball sighting and I got a high break of 27 ... earlier this year, I decided to try cue ball sighting and I like it and my high break has improved to 31 ...

Sorry DandyA, I think everyone else is correct and at the time of strike the eyes should ABSOLUTELY be on the object ball. This only makes common sense to me, but you're entitled to your opinion I guess but I just hope other players attempting to improve do not follow your advice on this point.

that's a fair point Terry, you are welcome to your opinion and I thank you for that and also saying I'm entitled to mine ... rather than just saying "it's wrong" ...

it's actually a posting you made at the start of this year that caused me to try cue ball sighting ... you were advising someone (I think they posted a video) and they were achieving about 10% long blues ... you advised them to try shutting their eyes to help deliver the cue straight ... at the time, you were also emphasising the importance of determining the line of aim whilst standing and then dropping into the address position on that line ...

so I thought about what you'd said and, deciding it was good advice, realised there was no need to look at the object ball during delivery ...

cue ball sighting (or even eyes closed) relies on determining the correct line of aim whilst standing, when in the address position confirming the line of aim and then delivering straight ... oh, and as surprised as vmax might be, I can make long straight blues or catch a thin edge of a ball on (which is very nearly snookered) just as well as I could with object ball sighting ... maybe better ...

object ball sighting seems to rely on steering the cue ... most object ball sighters (I think) would say they look at the contact point on the object ball (BOB or back of ball) ... which is most definitely not the line of aim on anything other than a dead straight pot ... but then they'll go on to say, the "hand will follow the eye" and they will subconsciously adjust for the offset ...

this to me means object ball sighters may or may not put the cue on the correct line of aim but they definitely do look at the wrong sighting point and then steer the cue - this is clearly not "hand follows eye" cos they'd always hit the object ball too thick if they did that ... this is "hand follows eye with an offset" ...

I'm not saying that's wrong ... what I am saying is cue ball sighting, ie making sure your cue is on the line of aim and then simply delivering the cue straight works just as well and possibly better ...

please can you argue your case for object ball sighting rather than taking cheap shots at me and my high break ... nothing you've said so far will make me switch back to object ball sighting but you could convince me if you justify it strongly enough ...

for all those who haven't tried cue ball sighting yet, I'd say try it ... you may be pleasantly surprised it really, really makes you concentrate on getting the line of aim right and then it takes all pressure of the pot simply because you're concentrating so hard on the line of aim and delivering the cue straight ... these are good things I think ...

[tedisbill]

Oh dear me.

[vmax4steve]

please can you argue your case for object ball sighting rather than taking cheap shots at me and my high break ... nothing you've said so far will make me switch back to object ball sighting but you could convince me if you justify it strongly enough ...

I think my case has has already been answered by you but you see it as a cheap shot, which it isn't, merely proof. Nine years of object ball sighting and a high break of 27 and now cue ball sighting and you have done nothing more than added the equivalent of a brown to that.
The purpose of these coaching threads is to help players like yourself gain a better understanding of the game so that you can improve. That's the only reason I post on these threads, and I only post advice that I know for certain to be correct. I don't go for any silly theories like transfering side and cobblers like that, just basic understanding of the fundamentals of the hand and eye co-ordination required to play the game.
If you discount this advice from me and a coach like Terry and even from Terry Griffiths who coaches this very principal himself then there isn't really any hope for you, but I will try just once again to get you to understand the reason why you absolutely must be looking at the contact point of the object ball at the exact moment of the strike.

Line up the shot before getting down into the stance position by focussing your eyes first on the contact point of the object ball and then at the cue ball while standing behind the shot. Your brain will take in the information of where the cue ball needs to hit the object ball (CONTACT POINT OF THE TWO BALLS) and an imaginary line between the two balls that stretches to the hand holding the butt of the cue will form in your mind.
To keep this line in your mind one does one of these three things when placing the feet and getting down into the stance position,

KEEP THE EYES ON THE CONTACT POINT OF THE OBJECT BALL
FLICK THE EYES BETWEEN THE CONTACT POINT OF THE OBJECT BALL AND THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL
KEEP THE EYES ON THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL

Now you are down on the shot and your butt hand is at the very end of this imaginary line, a line that is not pointing the tip of the cue at the contact point on the object ball, which would indeed make the contact too thick, but is pointing the tip of the cue through the centre of the cue ball in order to make the contact point of the cue ball make contact with the contact point of the object ball. Your brain knows this because that is the information given to it by your eyes. You need do no conscious thinking about this, it will happen on a subconscious level simply through looking at the target, which is the contact point of the object ball.
Keeping the eyes on the contact point of the object ball keeps this imaginary line intact so that your hand will follow your eyes. Any deviation of the eyes will cause a deviation in the butt hand. This is especially important over distance where small deviations will be magnified.

Now some players like myself (and all other fast players) focus for just a split second on this contact point, slower players focus for longer and more deliberately, this is down to an individuals timing and isn't a given for anyone in particular, you have to find your own which should occur naturally but if it doesn't then slow and deliberate should be best to start with.

Now I'll tell you why object ball sighting doesn't work for certain players.

THEY DON'T DO IT

Simple as that, they don't do it. They may think they do but at a crucial point in their cue action they take their eyes off the contact point of the object ball and miss. That imaginary line is broken and the butt hand is moving where the eyes are looking and the shot is missed.
These players then believe that object ball sighting isn't the way to go and try cue ball sighting or something else entirely like looking at the point on a cushion or something equally bizarre.

Now I'll tell you why cue ball sighting doesn't work

THAT IMAGINARY LINE BETWEEN THE BUTT HAND AND THE CONTACT POINT OF THE OBJECT BALL IS LOST. THE IMAGINARY LINE IS NOW ONLY BETWEEN THE BUTT HAND AND THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL AND THE BUTT HAND CAN DEVIATE SLIGHTLY AND STILL STRIKE THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL BUT WILL NOT SEND THE CUE BALL ON THE CORRECT PATH TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE CONTACT POINT ON THE OBJECT BALL.
ALSO THE BUTT HAND WILL HAVE A TENDENCY NOT TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THE STROKE AS THE TARGET IS NOW THE CUE BALL RATHER THAN THE OBJECT BALL AND ONES ACTION COULD CHOKE ON THE STRIKE.

Closing the eyes on the strike makes muscle memory take over from sighting and if you have a straight cue action it will work but do not confuse this with looking at the cue ball because looking at the cue ball is giving your butt hand a line it will follow to the centre of the cue ball, which can deviate as explained above.

IF CONTACT POINT ON THE OBJECT BALL SIGHTING ISN'T WORKING FOR YOU IT'S BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT DOING IT EVEN THOUGH YOU THINK YOU ARE AND THAT'S YOUR REAL PROBLEM

[nrage]

My 2p here is that vmax is correct. I have no doubt people can pot balls focused only on the white but I believe if you're doing that you are limiting yourself and your accuracy. The reason I believe this is as follows...

Lets imagine 2 identical players find the line of aim correctly and get down on the shot. Now, lets assume player A is focused on the center of the white only, and doesn't use the object ball from this point forward. Player B uses the contact point on the object ball for reference.

Player A has several points of reference to ensure he is on the line of aim. The center of the white is on the line of aim, as is his bridge hand, his chest contact point will be and his grip hand should be, initially. But, during the process of feathers it is possible for the grip hand to come off the line of aim. If this happens player A has to detect this using his reference points and correct it. The tip will have moved a very small amount, and the chest contact pressure will have changed minutely. These are difficult changes to detect as they are small at this distance.

Player B has an advantage over player A because player B has an extra point of reference, the contact point on the object ball. Just having another reference point is an advantage, but lets also consider another factor.

If your reference points are all close together (tip/white, bridge, chest) you cannot easily see changes, the changes are much smaller at small distances. If you have a reference point which is further way then a small change at one end becomes an obvious/large change at the other.

It's the same principal which applies to pistols and rifles. A rifle is more accurate because the distance along the barrel is greater, making it much easier to see when one end of the barrel is off the line of aim. It's how sights on a rifle work, they are a reference point at either end of the barrel, and show you when you have them both on the same line of aim, or not.

[DandyA]

Lets imagine 2 identical players find the line of aim correctly and get down on the shot. Now, lets assume player A is focused on the center of the white only, and doesn't use the object ball from this point forward. Player B uses the contact point on the object ball for reference.

Player A has several points of reference to ensure he is on the line of aim. The center of the white is on the line of aim, as is his bridge hand, his chest contact point will be and his grip hand should be, initially. But, during the process of feathers it is possible for the grip hand to come off the line of aim. If this happens player A has to detect this using his reference points and correct it. The tip will have moved a very small amount, and the chest contact pressure will have changed minutely. These are difficult changes to detect as they are small at this distance.

hi nrage I'm glad to have you join the discussion but I think you misunderstand me ... from the above, I think you think I do not look at the object ball when I'm down on the shot ... not true at all! may be I explained incorrectly ...

once I've gone into address position (having considered the line of aim to the best of my ability), I feather perfectly normally flicking my gaze between object ball, cue ball and cue ... I'm checking I'm happy with the line of aim and I'm checking my cue tip is going to hit the white where I want and I'm psyching myself up for a nice smooth, straight and accelerating delivery ... this is all perfectly normal I think and to be recommended ...

the difference now is at the front pause, prior to the final backswing and delivery, I now focus on the contact point on the cue ball rather than the object ball ...

I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to do it ... all I'm saying is, and it was quite surprising when I first tried it, I do not lose any accuracy at all, indeed I'm probably more accurate but let's say just as accurate ... but what I do gain is a much more accurate strike on the cue ball cos that's what I'm looking at ...

two other brief issues for discussion

I personally don't like a chest contact point ... my cue is certainly close to my chest but if I feel a contact (and I notice it) I'll twist my hips a bit more to remove it ... I've got 3 hopefully rock steady contact points - bridge, chin and grip, my grip delivers the cue hopefully straight using my chin and bridge as a guide ... I don't see the need personally for a fourth especially as the chest contact point is always exerting a sideways pressure ...

second issue for discussion ... whilst I accept broadly your pistol vs rifle argument ... I would consider a snooker cue a rifle especially if you do get your bridge "v" 9 inches or maybe slightly more from the cue ball ... I'm 6ft 1in using a 57.5in cue ... at front address with the cue tip nice and close to the white, my chin is not far away from the 3/4 split at 16in from the butt ... sp I've got about 40in of sighting ... that's a rifle not a pistol! plenty of sighting

so you're going to have to explain to me why say a 12ft incorrect sighting line works better than a 40in correct sighting line that sounds a bit argumentative but that's the crux of what I'm saying

anyway, always good to discuss stuff with you nrage ... I'm now about to read vmax's post above yours although I'm not sure I'll like it because (having skipped past it) it seems to include lots of SHOUTING and probably criticising me ... hey-ho, that's what forums are for

[DandyA]

Oh dear me.

lol ... some humour at last

[DandyA]

I think my case has has already been answered by you but you see it as a cheap shot, which it isn't, merely proof. Nine years of object ball sighting and a high break of 27 and now cue ball sighting and you have done nothing more than added the equivalent of a brown to that.
The purpose of these coaching threads is to help players like yourself gain a better understanding of the game so that you can improve. That's the only reason I post on these threads, and I only post advice that I know for certain to be correct. I don't go for any silly theories like transfering side and cobblers like that, just basic understanding of the fundamentals of the hand and eye co-ordination required to play the game.
If you discount this advice from me and a coach like Terry and even from Terry Griffiths who coaches this very principal himself then there isn't really any hope for you, but I will try just once again to get you to understand the reason why you absolutely must be looking at the contact point of the object ball at the exact moment of the strike.

errrr ... do you want to re-read that vmax? I've highlighted some of your comments in bold but wouldn't you think you are being a wee bit condescending towards me? that's why I say you take cheap shots - your high break may be higher than mine but that does not make you superior to me - better at snooker yes, superior no ...

now onto the rest of your post which discusses the issues well, stating what you believe and why, it's good stuff, I enjoyed reading it ...

Line up the shot before getting down into the stance position by focussing your eyes first on the contact point of the object ball and then at the cue ball while standing behind the shot. Your brain will take in the information of where the cue ball needs to hit the object ball (CONTACT POINT OF THE TWO BALLS) and an imaginary line between the two balls that stretches to the hand holding the butt of the cue will form in your mind.
To keep this line in your mind one does one of these three things when placing the feet and getting down into the stance position,

KEEP THE EYES ON THE CONTACT POINT OF THE OBJECT BALL
FLICK THE EYES BETWEEN THE CONTACT POINT OF THE OBJECT BALL AND THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL
KEEP THE EYES ON THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL

Now you are down on the shot and your butt hand is at the very end of this imaginary line, a line that is not pointing the tip of the cue at the contact point on the object ball, which would indeed make the contact too thick, but is pointing the tip of the cue through the centre of the cue ball in order to make the contact point of the cue ball make contact with the contact point of the object ball. Your brain knows this because that is the information given to it by your eyes. You need do no conscious thinking about this, it will happen on a subconscious level simply through looking at the target, which is the contact point of the object ball.
Keeping the eyes on the contact point of the object ball keeps this imaginary line intact so that your hand will follow your eyes. Any deviation of the eyes will cause a deviation in the butt hand. This is especially important over distance where small deviations will be magnified.

yep, that's all fine and what I try to do ...

Now some players like myself (and all other fast players) focus for just a split second on this contact point, slower players focus for longer and more deliberately, this is down to an individuals timing and isn't a given for anyone in particular, you have to find your own which should occur naturally but if it doesn't then slow and deliberate should be best to start with.

OK, that's how you do it - all fine ...

Now I'll tell you why object ball sighting doesn't work for certain players.

THEY DON'T DO IT

Simple as that, they don't do it. They may think they do but at a crucial point in their cue action they take their eyes off the contact point of the object ball and miss. That imaginary line is broken and the butt hand is moving where the eyes are looking and the shot is missed.
These players then believe that object ball sighting isn't the way to go and try cue ball sighting or something else entirely like looking at the point on a cushion or something equally bizarre.

you are speculating here vmax ... it seems to me, in order to justify the "OB sighting is the only way" argument, you are speculating that players miss because they didn't hold focus on the object ball ... it's possibly true but I'd suspect head or body movement, incorrect stance or poor delivery account for many more misses ...

Now I'll tell you why cue ball sighting doesn't work

THAT IMAGINARY LINE BETWEEN THE BUTT HAND AND THE CONTACT POINT OF THE OBJECT BALL IS LOST. THE IMAGINARY LINE IS NOW ONLY BETWEEN THE BUTT HAND AND THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL AND THE BUTT HAND CAN DEVIATE SLIGHTLY AND STILL STRIKE THE CENTRE OF THE CUE BALL BUT WILL NOT SEND THE CUE BALL ON THE CORRECT PATH TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE CONTACT POINT ON THE OBJECT BALL.
ALSO THE BUTT HAND WILL HAVE A TENDENCY NOT TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THE STROKE AS THE TARGET IS NOW THE CUE BALL RATHER THAN THE OBJECT BALL AND ONES ACTION COULD CHOKE ON THE STRIKE.

there's no need to shout vmax, my ears work perfectly ... I have two points in reply ... once, at front pause prior to the delivery swing, I am 100% confident that my cue is on my best estimate of the correct line of aim ... it's you who is struggling with imaginary lines, not I ... I have a very real aim, I can see that line cos it's simply where my cue is pointing - all I have to do is draw the cue back straight and then deliver it straight - hey, I can even see if I've done it well because, whilst I'm focussed on the contact point on the cue ball, my cue is also within my vision ...

second point ... you say there's a tendency to not follow through if looking at the cue ball ... errr - I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish ... there's actually a big tendency to accelerate and follow through the cue ball much better because I'm looking at it and can see if I hit it well