Miss Rule "...could be on..."

[Odrl]

I am sure I have seen this exact scenario several times in televised matches, with a warning given after two Misses, so I am fairly sure Group A is correct here. :wink:

[guernseygooner]

Sorry, but you're 100% wrong. The F&M call is based on the choices open to the striker... ie all balls that could be on. NOT the particular colour that he has nominated.

Ok, we will see if anything official comes back. What about if the only colour 'on' is virtually impossible to get to with any equipment. It can be seen full ball but an easier shot is to play another colour off a cushion?

[Londonlad147]

Ok, we will see if anything official comes back.

I might not be a professional referee, but I've been an examiner for 20 years and now a regional tutor.

What about if the only colour 'on' is virtually impossible to get to with any equipment. It can be seen full ball but an easier shot is to play another colour off a cushion?

Your statement is inconsistent! If you are 'on' a colour, then all colours are 'on'.. ie 'could be on'. If you ignore a colour that you can see full ball (which could be on) in order to play a more difficult colour that could also be on, then a MISS will be called if you fail to hit it simple.

[Londonlad147]

To those of you in camp B. Reverse the scenario. You've just potted a colour (after a red), so red is the ball on. The cue ball has come to rest surrounded by colours, leaving a clear path to just one red. If you play that one though, you're bound to leave your opponent with an easy opening red. Instead, you opt to play through a gap in the colours to play at a safe red on the baulk cushion. If he misses, are you saying that miss shouldn't be called, because the decision should be based on the shot selected? I think it's fairly obvious that a miss would be called and a warning given after two misses.

[Ramon]

I am sure I have seen this exact scenario several times in televised matches, with a warning given after two Misses, so I am fairly sure Group A is correct here. :wink:

It's true . Agreed .

Just to add ,

Ref is free to judge the situation. In this case hitting the black in a stright line , was Not easy .

[guernseygooner]

I might not be a professional referee, but I've been an examiner for 20 years and now a regional tutor.



Your statement is inconsistent! If you are 'on' a colour, then all colours are 'on'.. ie 'could be on'. If you ignore a colour that you can see full ball (which could be on) in order to play a more difficult colour that could also be on, then a MISS will be called if you fail to hit it simple.

I'll try one more time! What if - as in similar to the ROS scenario - you can see a colour but it is virtually impossible to get to. You play another colour coming off a cushion and miss it twice. Does the ref then warn you it will be frame awarded if you miss again as you can see another colour full ball?

[danam1]

I'll try one more time! What if - as in similar to the ROS scenario - you can see a colour but it is virtually impossible to get to. You play another colour coming off a cushion and miss it twice. Does the ref then warn you it will be frame awarded if you miss again as you can see another colour full ball?

Maybe that one would be down to referees discretion?

I'm in camp 'A' on this one though.

[Slasher]

Referees only have discretion when the striker is attempting to get out of a snooker. When the striker can see any part of a ball on, then, provided score differences allow, then the referee MUST call a miss according to the rules. There is NO discretion in not warning a player, but referees are human and sometimes forget or don't realise. Where a warning should have been given a F&M can continue to be called until such time as a warning is given. This is a bit akin to late warnings in billiards for consecutive hazards or cannons, when the striker will be allowed to make five further hazards or cannons after the warning is given.

I think the answer is in the wording "Could be on" this does not mean in this particular situation he HAS to nominate black but it does mean it could be on and therefore the miss rule is in effect. That's the way I would interpret it and it should have been a warning.

[DeanH]

Well, learn something new everyday, I myself and I hope all other readers have been so enlightened
(no offense to LondonLad, who I respect, but I wanted to see if I got another reply before posting )
Here is the reply from Brendan Moore:
Group A, as you describe them are correct.
Once a red has been potted, all the colours become ball on. If there is a clear path in a straight line to a ball that could be on, then if two foul and misses are called and then the balls are replaced, the player should be warned that a third miss on a ball on would result in loss of frame.
Imagine in the video you sent if there was a red on the yellow spot, and red was the ball on. For whatever reason the player decided to play off the side cushion to hit the red down in baulk and failed to hit it. The referee would call foul and a miss, if the ball was replaced and missed again would you warn the player? Yes you would as there is another red he could hit full ball (central ball contact), thus 'could be on'. The exact same principal applies when a colour is the ball on after a red has been potted.
Group B are incorrect when saying 'could be on' only applies in the scenario of multiple reds. What that part of the rule means is this, at the start of a frame you can't hit any red centre ball striking as reds are obstructing other reds. If the player who breaks misses the pack altogether, a miss is called, now if his opponent asks for it to be replaced and the striker misses again, he would now be warned that a third miss would mean loss of frame. This is because if you removed all the reds except the end one on the back row, you would be able to hit it full ball. So therefore 'could be on' applies to reds and colours, depending what the player is on.

[Londonlad147]

I'll try one more time! What if - as in similar to the ROS scenario - you can see a colour but it is virtually impossible to get to. You play another colour coming off a cushion and miss it twice. Does the ref then warn you it will be frame awarded if you miss again as you can see another colour full ball?

I'm sorry I thought we'd adequately covered that. If a ball on can be seen such that central full ball contact is available then a miss will be called (scores permitting) and a second miss will be called regardless of score difference, and a warning given after a second miss... no matter how difficult it is to actually play that shot.

[Londonlad147]

Maybe that one would be down to referees discretion?

Provided the score differences allow a miss to be called, the referee has NO DISCRETION in whether to call a miss where there is a straight line path available to a ball on or which could be on, no matter how difficult the shot might be. If there is a theoretical shot available then a miss will be called.

Imagine the cue ball is close to the baulk cushion and exactly one ball's width of the side cushion. Just off the top cushion is the last red which is one millimetre off the same side cushion, with a colour immediately in front of it and tight on the cushion. That means there's 1mm of the red sticking out, so in theory there is a straight line path to the red meaning a miss should always be called for a failure to hit it. But with nearly 12' gap, I doubt many players would be able to hit it!

[Londonlad147]

I think the answer is in the wording "Could be on" this does not mean in this particular situation he HAS to nominate black but it does mean it could be on and therefore the miss rule is in effect. That's the way I would interpret it and it should have been a warning.

Agreed, spot on!

[jrc750]

...
Here is the reply from Brendan Moore:
[I]Group A, as you describe them are correct.....

So i wonder if the referee will receive some additional training now

[screw-back]

So i wonder if the referee will receive some additional training now

This referee is one of the trainers and assessors of other referees.

I rest my case DeanH

[DeanH]

So i wonder if the referee will receive some additional training now

This referee is one of the trainers and assessors of other referees.

I rest my case DeanH

Shame isn't it