Knowing the potting angles - and positional play

[Scott M]

After playing for a long time (and always staying down on the shot), I am starting to find I can just look at a shot and know where the contact point is. Granted on unusual pots (usually ones that arise due to being out of position) I will revert back to my 'proper' aiming method, however on most shots that I am in position for I just know where to hit it

Is this a bad habit to get yourself into? Should I nip it in the bud now and aim 'properly' on every shot? Is this how the pros aim?

And now that my potting seems to be at an acceptable level, I am wondering if anybody can suggest, or point me in the direction, some training methods for positional play (even if it is just a book I could purchase that would help).

Summary:
-Competent at potting
-I can play stun, screw and follow through
-Have been doing the three red lineup between black and pink, and complete it about 1 in every 10 times (running out of position the other 9 times), so I have some knowledge of playing around the black. However I realise now this probably isn't the most efficient way to learn positional play
-Once the balls are scattered around, as they are in a real match, it all seems to go a bit haywire in terms of positional play

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I need methods that teach:
-The correct pace to play shots
-Prediction of cue ball direction (I know the 30 degree rule for topspin, and 90 degree rule for stun and screw, however obviously these aren't always correct, and it is better to just naturally know the angles rather than rely on rough guides)
-When to stun rather than screw (as the rule states both will cause the cueball to go in a 90 degree angle to the line between the pot and the object ball)

With the aim of being able to:
-Play when the balls are scattered around, as opposed to in a perfect line - and just generally improve my positional game ("Hahaha, don't you mean 'gain a' positional game?" my brain thinks to itself )

Any help is very much appreciated.

[mythman69]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I need methods that teach:
-The correct pace to play shots
-Prediction of cue ball direction (I know the 30 degree rule for topspin, and 90 degree rule for stun and screw, however obviously these aren't always correct, and it is better to just naturally know the angles rather than rely on rough guides)
-When to stun rather than screw (as the rule states both will cause the cueball to go in a 90 degree angle to the line between the pot and the object ball)

The 90 degree rule (tangent line) is for a stun shot i.e. the cue ball is hitting the object ball with no forward or backward rotation. If the cue ball has any reverse rotation then the cue ball will initially leave the object ball at 90 degrees but will then increase the angle.

Compare the follow, stun and maximum screw angles (in diagrams 1 and 3).

With more power (diagram 4 - speed effects) the cue ball travels further along the 90 degree line before diverting. See the diagrams. I hope that makes sense.

CUE BALL CONTROL.jpg

[ace man]

There are a zillion positional routines out there on youtube, DVDs. People will suggest to you this routine or that routine. And you know what? All of them are good and useful. Every single one of them. You could also improvize your own. But there simply isn't enough time in average human's lifetime to go through them all. You're going to have to pick a few that you like and stick with them for the next few years (yes, years, not months, certainly not days). The only thing I can suggest is not to try routines which are too difficult for your currrent level of play. It is not like you could not practise super difficult routines, of course you could, but those can frustrate very easily and make you feel very incompetent at the table...ego can suffer.
Example of the drill which doesn't look that tough, but is far too difficult for average players:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthXRHxj18A

[cyberheater]

Of all the routines that I have tried over the years. The best one I've found for my level is the 15 red line up. Put 1 red below the black spot. One red above the blue spot. A red on the black, pink and blue spots and the rest of the reds in between with even spacing. Pot all 15 balls. If you miss replace all the balls and start again.

Potting the first 3 reds is relatively easy. Keeping good position to pot the last 3 reds is hard. It will test you.

The good thing about this routine is that you don't have to keep picking balls out of pockets. You can just concentrate on potting and positioning which maximises effectiveness in the time available. Remember to concentrate on developing the ability to just stroke the ball in and make sure you follow through properly on every shot. I have improved a lot just by using this routine and nothing else.

[cyberheater]

Example of the drill which doesn't look that tough, but is far too difficult for average players:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthXRHxj18A

Yes. I've tried that. Ridiculously hard. I'm a good year or two away from that. Ronnie does make it look easy though.

[Bigmeek]

Cyberheater. Which red do you start with or do you do it different each time?

[Terry Davidson]

What mythman69 described above is called 'the perfect stun angle' by Nic Barrow in his positional instructions. You just change the height on the cueball for different angles with the cueball leaving the object ball.

Here is the best method I've ever seen for learning positional play however it's a bit cumbersome. When practicing by yourself (a playing partner wouldn't put up with it) have a small circle of paper, maybe 1/2" in diameter and before each shot place the paper disk where you want the cueball to end up. If you miss the position by more than 1" in close-in shots and maybe 6" in longer shots (amount of error is up to you) then set the shot up again until you learn what height and power to use on the shot.

Just remember if you stun the ball perfectly then the cueball will leave at 90* and you lessen or increase that angle by adjusting the height of the hit on the cueball. To get the most out of this exercise though you have to be delivering the cue fairly consistently straight.

I know it's very time consuming but I think it's absolutely the best way for a beginner or even a more accomplished player to learn cueball control.

Terry

[cyberheater]

Cyberheater. Which red do you start with or do you do it different each time?

I normally start with the ball nearest the black cushion and stun off the black cushion for the next ball and work my way up. If I'm not on the next ball into one of the black pockets I'll play a shot into the middle. If I break down I'll attempt the same exercise from the opposite side of the table.

Now and again I will just put the white down and play a easy shot and try and clear from there. It's all good practice.

Stun shot explained here:-

Another good one here:-

[Terry Davidson]

After thinking a bit about my recommendation on using a small spot of paper I had a thought. As we are really concerned with the ANGLE of the next pot then it would make sense to have the cueball end up on a line of angle from the next object ball rather than just a spot, as long as it's not too close to the cushion or the object ball.

So change the 'spot' to a 6" strip of paper about 1" wide and place the centre of that where you would normally place the spot. So that leaves a bit of room for error as far as power goes but still keeps the cueball at the perfect angle for position on the next ball.

(I wonder if anyone will try this as it is a pain in the butt by being so cumbersome and time-consuming, but it really teaches cueball control fast if you have the patience and re-set the balls when you miss either the position or the pot).

Terry

[Byrom]

I happen to think that over thinking when sighting is wrong.

Knowing the angles comes from experience of playing the same shots over and over simple - thinking about sighting angles and technique when playing in a game is limiting.

Play natural give yourself less to think about not more - trying to be over precise or trying out new sighting techniques this and that always kills my game.

Do routines and practice and improve your technique by all means - but there are no short cuts in snooker just practice - better to improve your technique of consistently delivering the cue straight and keeping still than worrying about sighting I believe.

[Scott M]

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Could you explain what the bottom-left diagram is showing?

Also thanks a lot - I now understand the direction of the shots and will adjust the position I strike to adjust the angle (as Terry said).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthXRHxj18A

Like all good sportsmen, he makes it look so easy.

Of all the routines that I have tried over the years. The best one I've found for my level is the 15 red line up. Put 1 red below the black spot. One red above the blue spot. A red on the black, pink and blue spots and the rest of the reds in between with even spacing. Pot all 15 balls. If you miss replace all the balls and start again.

Thank you, I will give this a try as it sounds within my skill range. And as you say not picking balls out of pockets = time saved, which is useful when you're playing to the clock.

(I wonder if anyone will try this as it is a pain in the butt by being so cumbersome and time-consuming, but it really teaches cueball control fast if you have the patience and re-set the balls when you miss either the position or the pot).

Terry

Do you think it would be better to place a ball instead of a piece of paper? Would mean you wouldn't have to remember to take your paper to the club, and it would give some experience of cannons at the same time as positional play.

I will also give this a go, as some brute force learning of the angles is needed before I move onto routines. I will do this for 45 mins (= the learning), then Cyber's suggestion for 15 mins (= putting it into practice), each time I go until I see an improvement. Thank you.

Edit: just to say thank you, as I was looking for a stance a while back and I found yours to be perfect for me. Was gonna post a thank you on the thread I saw it in, but it was from a while ago and I didn't want to gravedig the thread. Now seemed a good opportunity.

[itsnoteasy]

Colours across the table level with the pink spot, white three quarter pot low on the black(use a red instead of the black) stun up and hit each colour, this routine will take you form near the top of the white down the centre line to the bottom. You can also do it from high on the black coming off the bottom Cush back up to hit the colour.

[Scott M]

Colours across the table level with the pink spot, white three quarter pot low on the black(use a red instead of the black) stun up and hit each colour, this routine will take you form near the top of the white down the centre line to the bottom. You can also do it from high on the black coming off the bottom Cush back up to hit the colour.

Sounds a bit advanced for my level (its not easy ), but gives me something to aim for. I will give it a go once I have gained a bit in confidence. Cheers. =)

[itsnoteasy]

I don't know what others think but for me learning how to stun the white around can bring your game on leaps and bounds.

[Terry Davidson]

ScottM:

Using a red and playing a cannon is not an accurate way since you can hit the red and maintain position however without the resistance of the red you may have gone too far for good position on your next ball.

Yes, playing cannons onto red balls above the black is a very good exercise too. Just space 6 reds across the table (not near the cushion) midway between the black and pink and then give yourself a 3/4-black ball (about level with the black) and try stunning into each red in turn. This will teach you how high to hit the cueball to move it in the direction you want. You can also try placing reds on the cushion and trying to break them out.

In saying all that though, position is not an exact science as even the pros (including ROS) do come up short or go too far. Ronnie has said he normally plays position to an area on the table where he may get a choice of shots but of course he always has a specific ball in mind but he may get the wrong potting angle to get on his next ball. The nice thing is there are usually choices for position as long as you have an angle on the object ball and it's not dead-in as then your are limited to just 2 choices.

With a 3/4-black and using the top cushion you can get the cueball to anywhere on the table (even on a red on or near the baulk cushion) as long as the table is fast enough to do that.

Terry