Ferrules and Throw and Spin

[sfmcar]

100%.embarrassing

[matt926_uk]

Thanks guys, there's some good science and experiment in these papers with results that are much better than hearsay!

The conclusion seems to be that endmass is the most important thing. So, thin walled titanium is going to have a lot less endmass than brass, because it's less dense and there is less of it, ceteris parabus. If it was some form of plastic, let's say nylon, it would have even less endmass and thus throw. Is this part of the reason why North American cue makers use a lot of fibre/plastic ferrules? It would seem so. The authors are suggesting that endmass is effectively increased as the shaft becomes stiffer because of the behaviour of transverse elastic waves so don't bother using a carbon fibre shaft then! If you really hate throw, stiff shafts should be avoided which is counter intuitive to what most cue experts say; buy as stiff a shaft as you can tolerate.

Dr. Dave seems to have tested a lot of pool cues, all with plastic ferrules.

Terry has suggested that fibre has less throw than BS and this makes sense. Though the BS will change the behaviour of the transverse elastic waves, which will make it better than brass in terms of less throw. But is it as good as thin walled titanium?

The papers suggest that a hard tip will also increase endmass and throw. So another way of reducing throw is to switch to a softer tip. That pretty much rules out laminates in terms of minimising throw; a buffalo diamond plus or elk seems to be the way forward.

* Meucci are making laminated maple shafts with up to 35 layers. I didn't even know such things existed; even more science! The shafts themselves are claimed to reduce throw by 50% compared to solid maple. The Americans are doing all this research and tech and here we are wacking a brass ferrule on ash.

I'm using a hard laminated phoenix tip at the moment and there is virtually no throw. I have another cue with a stiffer shaft and an elk on it and this cue throws a **** load more

[golferson123]

Where have most cue experts said you should use a stiff shaft?

[philthoms]

Very interesting subject. I found the following link on the net which is very interesting:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/othe...er/4432771.stm

[Master Blaster]

Thanks guys, there's some good science and experiment in these papers with results that are much better than hearsay!

The conclusion seems to be that endmass is the most important thing. So, thin walled titanium is going to have a lot less endmass than brass, because it's less dense and there is less of it, ceteris parabus. If it was some form of plastic, let's say nylon, it would have even less endmass and thus throw. Is this part of the reason why North American cue makers use a lot of fibre/plastic ferrules? It would seem so. The authors are suggesting that endmass is effectively increased as the shaft becomes stiffer because of the behaviour of transverse elastic waves so don't bother using a carbon fibre shaft then! If you really hate throw, stiff shafts should be avoided which is counter intuitive to what most cue experts say; buy as stiff a shaft as you can tolerate.

Dr. Dave seems to have tested a lot of pool cues, all with plastic ferrules.

Terry has suggested that fibre has less throw than BS and this makes sense. Though the BS will change the behaviour of the transverse elastic waves, which will make it better than brass in terms of less throw. But is it as good as thin walled titanium?

The papers suggest that a hard tip will also increase endmass and throw. So another way of reducing throw is to switch to a softer tip. That pretty much rules out laminates in terms of minimising throw; a buffalo diamond plus or elk seems to be the way forward.

* Meucci are making laminated maple shafts with up to 35 layers. I didn't even know such things existed; even more science! The shafts themselves are claimed to reduce throw by 50% compared to solid maple. The Americans are doing all this research and tech and here we are wacking a brass ferrule on ash.

[rimmer10]

Do you not mean SA 80

Yep, that's it

[YDJ]

Theres been plenty of discussion about ferrules and tips and tip mass over the years.
There is also lots of information and testing done on youtube and websites like http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...t.html#endmass
or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx4r0NSsxqo
Google 'cue ball squirt and end mass' and plenty will come up.
I personally play with a pair shaft and titanium ferrule, but the main reason for using titanium was that the wall thicknes of titanium can be very thin when compared to brass and the weight is about 25% of brass. A thinner ferrule means you can have a larger wood tenon so more wood to tip contact which to me is important when playing with an 8mm tip.
Whether the throw is less using titanium I don't know as I've never used brass on this cue.

[Leo]

Terry has answered this in a previous post when stating that a heavier ferrule will throw more than a lighter one, It's a fact which can be proven with a simple Formula. Kinetic energy equals mass times speed squared divided by two. A heavier object in motion has more kinetic energy and is therefore more resistant to sudden changes in direction which means the cue ball will be thrown more off line. Think of an extreme example like a bullet. Although it weighs only a few grams it's kinetic energy at speed is immense. Also a heavy round from an AK47 has a lot more punch than a smaller one from a SAE 80, at similar speeds. But the most difference in kinetic energy is achieved by a change in speed. Double the speed quadruples kinetic energy, that's why if you hit the ball harder it will throw a lot more than a soft shot. Back in my days as a race mechanic we took painstaking care of making the unsprung mass of the cars (i.e. the wheels with all it's components like brakes, uprights suspension parts) as humanly light as possible for the tyres to keep optimum contact with the road at all times. Hope this answers it satisfactory. I think the question should be, if none of the pros use any of the low deflection stuff maybe its disadvantages outweigh it's advantage of less throw

Do you not mean SA 80

[strobbekoen]

some of the science
http://billiards.colostate.edu/techn...ew/TP_A-31.pdf

basically cue ball deflection is proportional to the distance-off-center where the cue hits the cue ball, and the effective mass of the front-end of the cue.
i would imagine that's why acuerate cues are tapered such and have a small tip to reduce end mass.
not sure if a ferrule has enough mass to have a big impact on this.

you'd be surprised how many people have trouble seeing the dead-center of the ball while cueing up. most people would have a offset and it can take years of practice just to hit the ball consistently in the center - this is mostly due to a dominant eye which most of us have. so reducing throw can be good thing, but by definition all cues throw.

[rimmer10]

Terry has answered this in a previous post when stating that a heavier ferrule will throw more than a lighter one, It's a fact which can be proven with a simple Formula. Kinetic energy equals mass times speed squared divided by two. A heavier object in motion has more kinetic energy and is therefore more resistant to sudden changes in direction which means the cue ball will be thrown more off line. Think of an extreme example like a bullet. Although it weighs only a few grams it's kinetic energy at speed is immense. Also a heavy round from an AK47 has a lot more punch than a smaller one from a SAE 80, at similar speeds. But the most difference in kinetic energy is achieved by a change in speed. Double the speed quadruples kinetic energy, that's why if you hit the ball harder it will throw a lot more than a soft shot. Back in my days as a race mechanic we took painstaking care of making the unsprung mass of the cars (i.e. the wheels with all it's components like brakes, uprights suspension parts) as humanly light as possible for the tyres to keep optimum contact with the road at all times. Hope this answers it satisfactory. I think the question should be, if none of the pros use any of the low deflection stuff maybe its disadvantages outweigh it's advantage of less throw

[Master Blaster]

Yes i have a MW blackspin, but personally i don't feel any difference to a brass ferrule, i think it's just the shaft that suits me which makes me love the cue. Every single cue plays slightly different, so unless you keep changing ferrules on the same cue you ain't ever really know if they react different or not, and then that's assuming you know what your feeling etc (i don't think i do)
I believe Trump just walked into the Parris shop and picked a Special out of the rack ie it wasn't made especially for him.

An experience based on trying different things, not an opinion. Thanks JRC. Is the shaft slimmer and more tapered on this cue than your others please?

[sberry]

but obviously, hand spliced cues deflect less than machine spliced cues which pot better, and 3/4 cues can't screw back as far as one piece cues, like I said earlier let's not go anywhere near ash vs maple...

[jrc750]

Fair enough mate. So you didn't order an MW with black spin then? I thought Trump switched to a Parris cue? I assumed it was an ultimate. What did John make him then?

Yes i have a MW blackspin, but personally i don't feel any difference to a brass ferrule, i think it's just the shaft that suits me which makes me love the cue. Every single cue plays slightly different, so unless you keep changing ferrules on the same cue you ain't ever really know if they react different or not, and then that's assuming you know what your feeling etc (i don't think i do)
I believe Trump just walked into the Parris shop and picked a Special out of the rack ie it wasn't made especially for him.

[bolton-cueman]

Do you think any pros ever read some of the posts on here and think WTF are they all going on about. Just got a little feeling that the cue enthusiasts on here worry more about the flex of shaft and stiffness of their cues then the pros who use them for a living do. May not, I just can't see it TBH.

a huge HUGE +1

[sberry]

he made him a 3/4 unicorn horn cue spliced with dragon tusks and a laminated smurf tip

some players have their own personal preference for equipment and some people like to copy other players styles, at the end of the day if it's not a defective cue it will do the same thing according to your ability and that includes your mental state of mind - if you think it's special it is for you