Pocket size for beginners

[barrywhite]

I absolutely agree with you. I just don't agree that opening up the bags suddenly makes the game more enjoyable and has the feckless hordes streaming through the doors.

All participation in sport is down. There are competing forms of entertainment. Pubs and clubs are open all day, so you don't have to go to a members club for out of hours action. People lack the patience for gatherings that have a high social barrier to entry (people don't get to know things, or join groups or clubs), they want to be able to be able to dip in when they feel like it on equal terms.

In my view, if you want to get people into snooker you have pool tables, pool teams, and an open social scene where everyone gets involved. Then you tell people that if they really want to improve their pool, they need to learn the accuracy and control of snooker.

The most popular, famous, and many would argue the most entertaining game of snooker of all time was littered with misses and mistakes. The final black took eight shots, and included several misses. Would it really have been better if the initial double on the black had gone in, or taking it further if Davis hadn't missed the green in frame 9?

No, I don't believe big bags will solve anything. I don't believe it makes the game better, or more entertaining, or more fun. I think if beginners get used to that, then fewer will progress from that level. You don't make someone a great golfer, by making them only play pitch and putt.

The problem that snooker has is that it's a game that requires a lot of investment - from someone installing and maintaining a table, to paying it's way, to learning to play it. My favourite snooker room locally has just recently been converted into a pub dining room. It makes more money. You don't change any of that by making the bags a bit bigger.

It's people that need to change, not the game. It's the surroundings....the table conditions have to be premium....so that there is nothing like it. Make people feel special for playing snooker. That will keep it alive. Not dumbing it down so it's nothing special.

...and hope to hell that Barry Hearn does something amazing with develoing the game at the elite level...because unless people aspire to play, they wont bother, and the facilities will be whittled away to nothing.

Yeah. It's as much a cultural as anything. Folk are happy to cough up £3-4 a pint but not pay the same for a table round here. But even drinking in public is down with people preferring the supermarket booze and sky on the telly. Can't blame em, going to the pub can be the cost of a whole month of sky. Folk ain't got a lot, suffering poor wages if they have a job, plenty don't. Snooker is largely a sport played by those on modest incomes and those modest incomes have taken a hammering the last 5yrs or so. But there is also the concentration and dedication issue. You have to really love snooker to play it, like golf. There isn't the love and dedication in people these days, look at how many marriages end; 6/10 now. No staying power in Britain's men.

[Terry Davidson]

Spot on! Everyone, no matter what standard will enjoy a frame more on a brushed, blocked and ironed table and be likely to return. I BBIed a table today, like a new suit. Just putting your hand on that cloth; proper!

@Terry; SWSA famed for tight pockets, tighter than WS template anyway, perhaps the true Star template; is this the club in your thoughts?

@tetricky, it is what it is bud. Folk are lazy, no matter what the pocket size, snooker is a discipline that is time consuming, 8hrs a day for the pros. Snooker's halcyon snooker hall days in the 80s and 90s were down to a lack of tv/satelite/internet alternatives, an attitude to get up and go out. Now the spuds like the sofa, no chance of getting the obese masses moving mate. It's painful to see clubs close but I really can't think of anyway of stopping it. As for the pros hitting loads of big breaks on telly; that's down to the slack WS template IMO, the Worlds at the Crucible being the worst offender. If you practice on a true star, those WS tables are buckets for the pros afterwards!

SWSA had one room with 4 tables for just the pros to practice and the pockets on those tables were more generous than the other tables in the club. This was done at the request of the Manager who felt the other tables with their standard STAR templates were too tight when compared to the TV tables.

[Terry Davidson]

I absolutely agree with you. I just don't agree that opening up the bags suddenly makes the game more enjoyable and has the feckless hordes streaming through the doors.

All participation in sport is down. There are competing forms of entertainment. Pubs and clubs are open all day, so you don't have to go to a members club for out of hours action. People lack the patience for gatherings that have a high social barrier to entry (people don't get to know things, or join groups or clubs), they want to be able to be able to dip in when they feel like it on equal terms.

In my view, if you want to get people into snooker you have pool tables, pool teams, and an open social scene where everyone gets involved. Then you tell people that if they really want to improve their pool, they need to learn the accuracy and control of snooker.

The most popular, famous, and many would argue the most entertaining game of snooker of all time was littered with misses and mistakes. The final black took eight shots, and included several misses. Would it really have been better if the initial double on the black had gone in, or taking it further if Davis hadn't missed the green in frame 9?

No, I don't believe big bags will solve anything. I don't believe it makes the game better, or more entertaining, or more fun. I think if beginners get used to that, then fewer will progress from that level. You don't make someone a great golfer, by making them only play pitch and putt.

The problem that snooker has is that it's a game that requires a lot of investment - from someone installing and maintaining a table, to paying it's way, to learning to play it. My favourite snooker room locally has just recently been converted into a pub dining room. It makes more money. You don't change any of that by making the bags a bit bigger.

It's people that need to change, not the game. It's the surroundings....the table conditions have to be premium....so that there is nothing like it. Make people feel special for playing snooker. That will keep it alive. Not dumbing it down so it's nothing special.

...and hope to hell that Barry Hearn does something amazing with develoing the game at the elite level...because unless people aspire to play, they wont bother, and the facilities will be whittled away to nothing.

I have seen a club open up their pockets and increase their snooker business as a result. A club close to a university did this and after a little while more and more students started t come in for an hour or two. It works.

We will always have the purists who insist pockets should be tighter than template and that's not especially bad if the tables are well maintained but most tables aren't. So you get slow, tight tables where no one can make any kind of break at all.

[thommo335]

Thinking about what Geoff said about uniformity........why is there so much mystery over templates? The R & A and the USGA are quite clear in their Rules about the size of the golf hole - when golfers play, they know that they're playing the same game as the pros.........why should snooker be different? A set, agreed, master template that the Star tables the pro's on TV play on should be mandated. Then club owners can say, yes we have tables equivalent to TV tables, so let's see how good you are and other tables that are wider for improvers and beginners.Or is this too simplistic.....??

[barrywhite]

Thinking about what Geoff said about uniformity........why is there so much mystery over templates? The R & A and the USGA are quite clear in their Rules about the size of the golf hole - when golfers play, they know that they're playing the same game as the pros.........why should snooker be different? A set, agreed, master template that the Star tables the pro's on TV play on should be mandated. Then club owners can say, yes we have tables equivalent to TV tables, so let's see how good you are and other tables that are wider for improvers and beginners.Or is this too simplistic.....??

Because the punters won't want to watch the odd ton and maybe a 147 once a year so the theory goes. People need instant fixes and the bigger the fix (pardon the pun, no reference to players conduct intended arf arf) the better. That's why folk like pool. It's over in ten minutes which is the limitation of their minds. The emphasis in snooker is on potting now. Before, you'd leave a chap north of the baulk and potting would be tricky and exact. Now, they rattle them in off the baulk rail. It's not just easier pockets but also better technique and different practice as well. But the pockets help. In the old days players had to wait for an easier opportunity and we had more safety battles and smaller breaks. I actually think this style is more typical of a club game where the players have less ability than the pot the lot crew on tv at the mo.

If WS released the template, they'd have to admit they'd fiddled the pockets and fans and purists would be shaking their heads saying was Robbo's 100 tons in a season real? Are those 147s we see real, etc. Can of worms mate. But I agree, release the template, let Star make all the tables to this one, uniform tv size and off we all go; in the same direction.

Terry; proof! Yes, the TV pockets are bigger then the true Star template! I always said there's no way Judd and Robbo could hammer them in on a proper Star. I should be playing upstairs for a maxi. lol

[vmax4steve]

SWSA had one room with 4 tables for just the pros to practice and the pockets on those tables were more generous than the other tables in the club. This was done at the request of the Manager who felt the other tables with their standard STAR templates were too tight when compared to the TV tables.

I'd bet the pros room has tables with WS templates.

If WS released the template, they'd have to admit they'd fiddled the pockets and fans and purists would be shaking their heads saying was Robbo's 100 tons in a season real? Are those 147s we see real, etc. Can of worms mate. But I agree, release the template, let Star make all the tables to this one, uniform tv size and off we all go; in the same direction.

Terry; proof! Yes, the TV pockets are bigger then the true Star template! I always said there's no way Judd and Robbo could hammer them in on a proper Star. I should be playing upstairs for a maxi. lol

Nail on the head there Barry, the pros pockets are bigger than the match table in our club, the BBC tournament pockets are bigger again; proof of that was found in 2014 when Steve Davis saw a red fall in that shouldn't have and called them buckets, and the pockets were tightned the next day, how could the table fitters tighten pockets that conform to WS templates.

Said mentioned red is from Barry Hawkins at 5.17, even Barry couldn't believe it.

I'd like to play on tables that take balls like they do at the Crucible, feel that for sure I'd have made a ton or two when reds that shave the near jaw still drop, had a 68 on sunday and missed one that was an inch off the cushion, two further reds still left and the colours on their spots, that's they way it is on tight tables.

Should be the same for everyone, not just the the pros.

[tetricky]

Shorter matches. Bigger bags. It's fundamentally changed the game for the worse in my view and why people care less for it.

[ace man]

Come on guys, let's be real. None of you would be any good on tables which are prepared specifically for TV tournaments, more generous templates or not. They have brand new No. 10 cloth, TV lights, heaters. Who plays on those apart from pro players who have progressed to TV stages? Nobody. How on Earth will you control the cueball under conditions which will be completely foreign to you?? I know I couldn't.

[tedisbill]

Come on guys, let's be real. None of you would be any good on tables which are prepared specifically for TV tournaments, more generous templates or not. They have brand new No. 10 cloth, TV lights, heaters. Who plays on those apart from pro players who have progressed to TV stages? Nobody. How on Earth will you control the cueball under conditions which will be completely foreign to you?? I know I couldn't.

They'd all be brilliant ace man. It's only that slightly nippy corner bag down their club that is holding them back.

[j6uk]

their hardly hitting the ball cus of the skids and there sliding in after a few rattles, thats the deal. the tables are tough

[itsnoteasy]

They'd all be brilliant ace man. It's only that slightly nippy corner bag down their club that is holding them back.

Quote of the year for me.
Surely no one believes these top players aren't capable of clearing any table under any reasonable conditions.

[Ramon]

Shorter matches. Bigger bags. It's fundamentally changed the game for the worse in my view and why people care less for it.

+10

If anyone thinks, I can'nt play because of the size of the pockets then he is dreaming and he has chosen the wrong sport.We're talking about snooker, not US pool.
If sumone can'nt run a dicent breaks , then that would be his level. accept it or practice.
Terry is right. could be interesting for a new customer who comes to the club for the first time and maybe he comes back once. but in the end he has to play matches. He can'nt play for the rest of his life on the tables with large pockets.
eventually he realizes that snooker is not easy as he thought it is and the result would be : big disappointment ,and he gives up playing.
AS for the pro's , Do'nt worris about them. those guys can pott the balls on any table with their eyes shot . They do'nt even think about the size of the pocket , at the time of striking the CB. which is the main reasen whay they have become a good players .

[Shockerz]

+10

If anyone thinks, I can'nt play because of the size of the pockets then he is dreaming and he has chosen the wrong sport.We're talking about snooker, not US pool.
If sumone can'nt run a dicent breaks , then that would be his level. accept it or practice.
Terry is right. could be interesting for a new customer who comes to the club for the first time and maybe he comes back once. but in the end he has to play matches. He can'nt play for the rest of his life on the tables with large pockets.
eventually he realizes that snooker is not easy as he thought it is and the result would be : big disappointment ,and he gives up playing.
AS for the pro's , Do'nt worris about them. those guys can pott the balls on any table with their eyes shot . They do'nt even think about the size of the pocket , at the time of striking the CB. which is the main reasen whay they have become a good players .

I moved to another table some 3 years ago in a local club as the pockets were ridiculously tight. The barman who I'd known for some 3 months and never seen play said he'd tried to play snooker but couldn't crack it so just does his job and plays online poker.

When we moved he called a guy over he knew (who was surprised) and asked for a game. I was watching and he banging (and I mean banged) in a few 80's, 90's and other smaller breaks. Then a ton+ and finally a 131. Those pockets were old billiard pockets and he smashed them in. The guy he slaughtered was a div 1 player of some reputation who was thoroughly cheesed off as he fancied it.

When I asked who he was, apparently he had tried to be a pro and given up to be a barman.

If a guy like that can pot like that on billiard pockets then the pro's aren't gonna be that worried I would think!

After changing table I noticed

[Ramon]

I moved to another table some 3 years ago in a local club as the pockets were ridiculously tight. The barman who I'd known for some 3 months and never seen play said he'd tried to play snooker but couldn't crack it so just does his job and plays online poker.

When we moved he called a guy over he knew (who was surprised) and asked for a game. I was watching and he banging (and I mean banged) in a few 80's, 90's and other smaller breaks. Then a ton+ and finally a 131. Those pockets were old billiard pockets and he smashed them in. The guy he slaughtered was a div 1 player of some reputation who was thoroughly cheesed off as he fancied it.

When I asked who he was, apparently he had tried to be a pro and given up to be a barman.

If a guy like that can pot like that on billiard pockets then the pro's aren't gonna be that worried I would think!

After changing table I noticed

interesting story.
Well , as I said in my previous post pros do not think about the size of the pocket ( Not saying they do'nt notice it ). Those who believe bigger pockets makes this game easier or more interesting are just like a player who can'nt play a scrw back shot and what he gonna do ?? Buy a heavier cue (22 OZ) to get that CB back every time (instead of learning how to strike the CB). Well , we both know , that does'nt work .

[Terry Davidson]

+10

If anyone thinks, I can'nt play because of the size of the pockets then he is dreaming and he has chosen the wrong sport.We're talking about snooker, not US pool.
If sumone can'nt run a dicent breaks , then that would be his level. accept it or practice.
Terry is right. could be interesting for a new customer who comes to the club for the first time and maybe he comes back once. but in the end he has to play matches. He can'nt play for the rest of his life on the tables with large pockets.
eventually he realizes that snooker is not easy as he thought it is and the result would be : big disappointment ,and he gives up playing.
AS for the pro's , Do'nt worris about them. those guys can pott the balls on any table with their eyes shot . They do'nt even think about the size of the pocket , at the time of striking the CB. which is the main reasen whay they have become a good players .

Problem with your statement though is most pros learned on generous tables in the beginning and 'graduated' to the tighter templated tables after a few years.