Particular type of shot

[checkSide]

It seems to me you're talking about swerving the cueball before it makes contact with the object ball to create an angle, fair enough this would create a slight angle on a straight shot without pinching the pocket but i cant imagine why you would ever want to try do this in a game situation, it's incredably hard to pot a ball acurately if youve swerved the cueball before contacting the object ball even for a very good player and the position a couple of inches either side of straight you gain dont seem worth the risk to me.

Yes Forman, I am talking about swerve, but not in the sense of elevating the cue.

When you play with side you have to take into account the initial squirt of the cue ball being pushed off line by striking with side, followed by the swerve back into the aiming line also created by striking with side.

I'm sure you've played snooker long enough to know that some shots, dependant on pace, distance to the object ball, and amount of side you are using, REQUIRE A DIFFERENT AIMING LINE to the plain ball shot.

Do you accept this fact?

If you do, then you will see that a straight shot played with side may require you to aim to miss the pocket. The result of this is the cue ball no longer follows the straight line after impact. Therefore is possible to create a small angle on a straight shot, if you play with side.

Do you really think you aim shots with side exactly the same as you aim with plain ball??
If it were that easy to play with side, everyone would be doing it wouldn't they? It would be very simple indeed.

[DandyA]

this is a question of wether on not there is enough friction between two balls for side imparted on the cueball to have any effect on the direction the object ball travels after contact.

I believe that there isnt enough friction or surface area in contact at the time of impact for side on the cue ball to effect the object ball

yes that's a very good point Forman and that is the question ... my reply (but only my opinion) ...

I once saw a video (I would think posted on this forum) of a 9ball expert using super-highly-polished balls proving there is no throw ... and I mean polished rather than just clean ...

I'm an old, occasional and poor snooker player but I did treat myself to a set of Aramith Tournament Champions for last Xmas - cleaned in soapy water, never polished - and I can demonstrate throw to make a pot (but not to hit a dead straight blue and get the white down the table) ...

Being the proud owner of a set of TC's I read a bit about them ... did you know it would take a 5 tonne press to smash one? and that they reach some silly stupid instant temperature at the point of contact ...

Would you admit there's a lot more going on than any human eye can see but that super-slo-mo cameras are starting to? Obviously, the contact between cue and cue-ball is not instant because we use all use a floppy bit of wood with an even softer bit of cow at the end ... but neither is the contact between two things we think are rock hard ie snooker balls ...

On an aside, it always makes me smile when Thorne and Virgo are on commentary together ... whenever the producer shows a super-slo-mo replay of a contact, Thorne always says "that didn't happen in our day did it John?" and Virgo always replies "no, it didn't" ... actually, it did, it was just that super-slo-mo camera hadn't been invented so they couldn't see it ...

[Forman]

I believe in what is called "throw" or what UK snooker commentators call "turning the ball over" ...

Say you have a dead straight black (black on spot, white on yellow side of table) except the dead straight line is set on the left jaw - normally you'd hit the black slightly on the left but say there's another ball preventing that ...

Aim at the black centre putting medium left hand side and medium weight on the cue ball ... as the white hits the black it will cause the black to throw to the right in this example ...

According to Dr Dave Alciatore who someone mentioned earlier on this thread, the trick is to not use too much side or too much weight ... I'm not a scientist but I would agree ... you do see pro's use throw and commentators talk about it and I can use it too although it doesn't always work (probably my poor cueing?) ...

this is a question of wether on not there is enough friction between two balls for side imparted on the cueball to have any effect on the direction the object ball travels after contact.

I believe that there isnt enough friction or surface area in contact at the time of impact for side on the cue ball to effect the object ball

When you play a ball with side it "throws" that ball off the intended line of aim (hitting in exactly the same spot), therefore to correctly pot the ball you must aim a little thinner / thicker than intended. So a straight shot becomes a slightly angled shot when played with side.

I completely disagree with this rob

[DandyA]

BTW ... according to my theory, this explains the dead straight blue discussion too ...

to get "throw" the cue-ball can't be hit too hard or with too much spin ... so it won't help getting the white nearer the next red which is why I think, you'll always see a pro leave a longer pot ...

mindu, I often notice pro's on other pots using "helping side" which I personally don't understand ...

[Forman]

it can be done. i can make the cueball roll over the black spot out of a dead straight blue to the middle. using cushions of course. and i'm not that good.

so can i, but by pinching the pocket to create an angle and using side to change the angle off the cushion,this is completely different to using side in order to get the cue ball to deviate from running straight through or screwing straight back (which in my opinion cant be done, unless your swerving the cueball before making contact)

because they got to minimize the risk of everything that could go wrong.
for a pro, the long red from next to the blue into the corner is a lot easier and more predictable. easy to run through 10cm, or screw exactly 15, leaving EXACTLY the angle you need. instead of hammering it in, risking the miss, just to get 30cm closer to de red with APPROXIMATELY the angle you need.
it all is a matter of weighting risks, chances, percentages.

so you won't be able to link me to a video of a frame where a pro acually does what your talking about?

I'm sorry but untill i see it done i dont believe it.

[DandyA]

I believe in what is called "throw" or what UK snooker commentators call "turning the ball over" ...

Say you have a dead straight black (black on spot, white on yellow side of table) except the dead straight line is set on the left jaw - normally you'd hit the black slightly on the left but say there's another ball preventing that ...

Aim at the black centre putting medium left hand side and medium weight on the cue ball ... as the white hits the black it will cause the black to throw to the right in this example ...

According to Dr Dave Alciatore who someone mentioned earlier on this thread, the trick is to not use too much side or too much weight ... I'm not a scientist but I would agree ... you do see pro's use throw and commentators talk about it and I can use it too although it doesn't always work (probably my poor cueing?) ...

[RGCirencester]

When you play a ball with side it "throws" that ball off the intended line of aim (hitting in exactly the same spot), therefore to correctly pot the ball you must aim a little thinner / thicker than intended. So a straight shot becomes a slightly angled shot when played with side.

[Forman]

Without using a cushion the angle you can create will only give you an inch or two each way. It will make no difference to the long red you are planning to take next when you compare it to the risk of playing with side.

You see the pro's playing the shot occasionally around the black spot, when an inch or two makes the difference between being able to pot the next ball or end of break.

All you need to do is set up a straight blue and experiment potting it at different speeds, different cue elevations, and with different amounts of side. You will soon discover that you HAVE to create an angle for certain shots with side or you will miss the pot.

I think you and krypton are talking about different things.

It seems to me you're talking about swerving the cueball before it makes contact with the object ball to create an angle, fair enough this would create a slight angle on a straight shot without pinching the pocket but i cant imagine why you would ever want to try do this in a game situation, it's incredably hard to pot a ball acurately if youve swerved the cueball before contacting the object ball even for a very good player and the position a couple of inches either side of straight you gain dont seem worth the risk to me.

Do you know of any videos on youtube (or anywhere) where a pro can be seen playing this kind of shot? I watch alot of snooker and cant recall ever seeing this shot played so would be keen to see it put into practice in a frame.

[checkSide]

yes of course it can be done using the cushion, but the point was without using a cushion.

Without using a cushion the angle you can create will only give you an inch or two each way. It will make no difference to the long red you are planning to take next when you compare it to the risk of playing with side.

You see the pro's playing the shot occasionally around the black spot, when an inch or two makes the difference between being able to pot the next ball or end of break.

All you need to do is set up a straight blue and experiment potting it at different speeds, different cue elevations, and with different amounts of side. You will soon discover that you HAVE to create an angle for certain shots with side or you will miss the pot.

[RGCirencester]

I never understand why they dont take the yellow or brown instead of the straight blue.

[stjimmy18-1991]

yes of course it can be done using the cushion, but the point was without using a cushion.

[Krypton]

because they got to minimize the risk of everything that could go wrong.
for a pro, the long red from next to the blue into the corner is a lot easier and more predictable. easy to run through 10cm, or screw exactly 15, leaving EXACTLY the angle you need. instead of hammering it in, risking the miss, just to get 30cm closer to de red with APPROXIMATELY the angle you need.
it all is a matter of weighting risks, chances, percentages.

it can be done. i can make the cueball roll over the black spot out of a dead straight blue to the middle. using cushions of course. and i'm not that good.

[stjimmy18-1991]

if you could make an angle off a dead straight blue using side....why do professionals always want screw back or run through the white to leave a long red or play a safety?

if they are such good cueists, why dont they pick the pocket....tons of side...and force the angle?

[1lawyer]

You can make an angle on a straight shot by hitting it harder and their are sections of the pocket you can aim for to 'pinch' a bit on any shot even one that is perfectly straight as long as you can see the full pocket. So you can always find a slight angle, this differs according to the size and cut of the pockets though.

[checkSide]

thats a great site, lots of cool videos but i couldnt find anything showing side changing the path of the cue ball after contacting the object ball.

Hi Forman.

Krypton has given a good answer.

Just to clarify from my own point of view. The path of the cue ball doesn't change after contacting the object ball. All the usual rules of physics apply. What happens is the cue ball is not travelling in a straight line.

SEE HERE.

If you look at diagrams 1,2,3, and 4, you will see the path the cue ball is taking for different speed shots with different amounts of side. If you imagine your straight pot is on the straight black line in the diagrams, you will quickly see that to pot a ball along this line, the cue ball is no longer approaching in a dead straight direction. Therefore it is contacting the object ball as if you played the pot from a slight angle. The result of this is that the cue ball now reacts in the same manner as always, and comes off at a slight angle relative to the angle it approached the object ball!

I hope this clarifies my opinion!

Cheers.