Help with my grip - With Videos :)

[stjimmy18-1991]

Hello everyone. This is a continuation thread from my previous thread regarding the pre-shot ritual and getting down. I've worked hard on my alignment and made many adjustments. However, this is a thread about my grip. While working on my alignment both at home on my dinner table and at the club, i noticed my grip is different depending on where i am. How strange!

Here are some vids.

At home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHBI7Kx5VTA

At the club:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDG4E...ature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FErm4...ature=youtu.be

They both look different to me. It looks to me as though the grip i have at home is alot better, and slightly cocked compared to the one at the club. Also, my grip at the club seems to have my back fingers coming back onto the cue too early in the delivery.

I've been messing about at home with different types of wrist cock and it feels to me like when i cocked my wrist in at home, it resembles my grip in the club.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMjP-...ature=youtu.be

What are some people's thoughts?

[nrage]

The height of the kitchen table vs the snooker table will make a difference.

I found that on a pool table, which is lower, my grip and elbow alignment is much better than on a snooker table and I believe the difference is the height. When the table is higher, it pushes the cue higher relative to my shoulder joint, and as I'm only 5'8" this means that my elbow has to move out of line (or it could move in) to accommodate it. This is why, for me, it's so important to keep my cue as low/level as possible.

According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard_table
"The height from the floor to the top of the cushion is between 2 ft 9.5 in and 2 ft 10.5 in (85.1 cm and 87.6 cm)"

And earlier it talks about height from bed to nose of cushion being something like 1 7/16" or 1 3/16" so if you assume 1 1/2" that means the bed of the table is 2 ft 8 - 2ft 9 inches off the floor.

So, how high is your kitchen table? Stack some books, or similar, up on it to get it to 2 ft 8-9 inches and see what that does to your grip.

Another factor may be where/how you place your bridge to avoid the rails/cushions, perhaps you're straighter/lower on the kitchen table because there are no rails in the way. Place something on the table where the rails might be and see if that makes any difference.

[stjimmy18-1991]

I'm still struggling with transfering my home cue action to a real snooker table. My kitchen table is exactly 3 inches shorter than a real table, will this effect my grip that much?

I practiced today, making sure i had a 45 degree wrist cock. This felt FANTASTIC at the start of my session. I was hammering long blues in easy peasy!

I thought 'YES, now all i need to do is keep practicing and i'm well on my way.'

But this quickly fell to pieces and i started missing long blues by huge distances. Massive distances. Closer to the middle pocket! It was totally confusing, i couldnt miss at the start, yet i couldnt even get close at the end. I wondered whether i was overcocking the wrist. Furthermore, the more i played the more i felt a slight pain in my deltoid area. I was defo not doing it right compared to earlier. It was incredibly frustrating, knowing for 30 mins or so i 'had it', i was cueing unbelieveably straight, shooting the spots at full power and potting long blues with my eyes closed. It was unreal.

This led me to start to question my way of incorporating a wrist cock into my technique. Surely if i get down naturally, then cock the wrist, the will rotate the cue off line? This made me think it should be formed before getting down, but i found this incredibly difficult. I also found myself pulling my elbow towards my body similar to Higgins/Williams. My elbow is normally straight.

This really hurt my head and i just couldn't pot a ball after that. I managed to get some videos of me in the club, not great ones though. But they are defo not right!

Have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv17pn12n8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loBT9bks3mw

I did more practicing last night at home and found what i felt was my perfect position :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmRVg...feature=relmfu

I could really do with some people's opinions on how i should go forward.

[stjimmy18-1991]

Here's another vid. Dont quite know what to make of this one, apart from the obvious fact my forefinger and thumb is too loose, but ignore that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRtMn...ature=youtu.be

[Terry Davidson]

stjimmy:

It's not the wrist cock which is the problem with your grip. The wrist cock can be anywhere from zero degrees (straight wrist joint) to almost 90degrees, depending on the player's own preference and what he needs to keep the wrist joint from turning DURING THE DELIVERY.

The more important aspect of the grip is how your fingers are actually configured. First of all, grip the cue with just the forefinger and the thumb. The butt of the cue should be on the bone of the thumb between the first and main thumb joint which will enable it to rotate easily and the thumb should be pointing straight down to the floor in the address position (this will give around a natural 30degree or so wrist cock depending on the player.

The back 3 fingers of the grip should just be loosly touching the butt and not applying pressure AT ALL and this is maintained throughout the backswing and delivery. The only place the back 3 fingers should come onto the butt of the cue is AFTER the cueball has been struck and even then it's not necessary and you can use the thumb and forefinger to stop the cue.

This grip will allow the butt of the cue (or the grip if you prefer) to easily change the angle between the front of the hand and the butt and allow the butt to easily rotate within the grip as you backswing and deliver. It also has the distinct advantage of forcing the player to punch through the cueball and accelerate right into his chest, which is the purest cue action there is

Terry

[kramer8]

What is that on the butt of your cue? Some kind of tape? Is your cue damaged or something? Any kind of crack, even an invisible internal one can be very bad for consistency. It is a snooker cue, isn't it , not some kind of pool cue with a wrap? I think wraps or tape just stops smooth cue action and just feels bad.

[kramer8]

Is that tape on your snooker cue? Is your cue damaged? Or is that a pool cue with a wrap? Cues are easily cracked and can be made useless in some cases. The line up is a good drill but you almost always get easy position on a red . A real game is much harder to get postion on a red.But it is still tough for most players. Running the colors is good because it is the most points possible in six shots(27) and ends the game.Try shooting the black off its spot and get position for another black. Some try for 100 in a row but 36 represents 15 reds,15 colors,and six final colors.(Again a lot easier than a real game with many tied up reds, knowing what shot to take, and sometimes moving the cue ball over longer distances.)

[DandyA]

I'm only a once a week high break 31 player, so please feel free to ignore me, but the thing that worries me most on all those videos is the butt of the cue dropping so dramatically probably before you hit the cueball ... in one of the vids, we see your elbow drop perhaps 6 inches very early in the delivery (and butt 2 or 3 inches) so you seem to be using your upper arm to deliver the cue, rather than your lower arm as I think it should be ...

maybe I'm going mad ... a little elbow drop to help follow through is fine, preferably after hitting the cueball, but I personally also think it's important to try to keep the cue on the same horizontal (but sloping) plane during delivery ... in those videos, you are not even close to maintaining the same horizontal plane as your feathers ...

[stjimmy18-1991]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Terry:
From reading your posts scattered across this forum i feel bad for making you repeat yourself once again. I understand the process you are referring to and i've been working on it. If cocking the wrist isn't my problem, then what is? I've noticed sometimes the butt of my cue and my elbow arnt aligned with eachother, because my back arm is some times is hanging out. Should i work on bringing my elbow over the butt rather than the wrist under the elbow?

kramer8:
The tape on my cue is lead tape to make the cue heavier. I was given this cue so i wasn't the one who did it. I've been playing with this cue for my whole duration of playing snooker which is about 4 years. I've never had the money to get my own custom made cue, so i've just used this one. But i do have plans to buy a new one one day.

DandyA:
Yeah, you are right. I've always known i've had this in my cue action but i've never understood the reasoning for it.

[stjimmy18-1991]

Update on my grip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anFqs...ature=youtu.be

I've been learning the 'feeling' of when my wrist is in its optimum position and directly under my elbow, and i've been working on uncocking the hand at the backswing, as well as delivering the cue without the back fingers having any influence. I'm aware i still have other factors effecting my cueing, such as my elbow coming in during my delivery. I've played a few shots attempting to deliver 'from the hand' and these feel alot different to what i am used to. I have a feeling i've been delivering from the shoulder for a while which has resulted in my cue dipping just as i start the delivery. I could be wrong.

Regards my actual play, i'm still very hot and cold. I did around 3 hours of just long blues yesterday from all directions and its very 50/50. Sometimes i can go 4 or 5 pots in a row right in the heart of the pocket, and then i'll go to 4 or 5 in a row of straight knuckling. But on the bright side i only miss one every 20 by around a foot. I can't expect miracles just yet though.

[Terry Davidson]

stjimmy:

I see two separate (little) problems in your delivery. The first you've already mentioned in that your upper arm gets involved with the delivery WAY too early. What should happen is on the longer backswings the elbow should drop perhaps 1-2" and then at the start of the delivery the elbow should RISE back to where it was at the address position AND STAY THERE until the cueball has been struck and then it should drop perhaps 3-4". Your upper arm and elbow drops before you hit the cueball and at the end of the delivery the elbow is down around 6-7" which to my mind is a little too much.

Work on getting the elbow to rise (if it initially dropped a bit on the backswing) since remember what you are trying to achieve here, that is, returning the cue to the EXACT address position at the time of strike. With the premature elbow drop your cue is well off plane and this plays into point #2.

The second point is your left shoulder is not behind the head. To achieve this get your right armpit down as low to the table as you can by bending the right leg a bit more (not too much!), then see if you can get the left shoulder higher but without introducing any discomfort. With your set-up you have the left shoulder out to the left of the head and also the elbow actually hanging IN towards the spine at your address position and when you drop that elbow early you are taking the butt of the cue off-line by more than a little bit.

The 'ideal' alignment is to have the shoulder not visible behind the head when looking straight on and the elbow behind the shoulder and in line with near to the centre of the head and the hand, of course, directly under the elbow with the wrist cocked a little bit to ensure the butt of the cue is DIRECTLY under the long straight forearm bone, which is the driving lever for the cue.

However, some player's physiques are a bit different so don't get yourself into an uncomfortable position, just come as near as you can while still remaining comfortable with no strain on the shoulder and upper arm.

All that said, I think if you can delay that early and severe elbow drop you have you should start potting long balls more consistently. Also, one other piece of advice...doing long straight blues for that long a period of time is not being beneficial to your cue action and technique as you are cementing in the above two problems. Set a time limit on any practice routine and stick to it. I would say for long blues 20 minutes is more than enough. Take a tea break or whatever every hour if you can for 15 minutes or so to give yourself a chance to stay fresh.

Terry

[stjimmy18-1991]

Thanks so much for your detailed response Terry. Sorry if i sound ignorant, but is my grip fine then?

Regarding the two problems you have noticed, i have been aware of my severe elbow drop for some time but had no way of knowing how to correct it. I considered reverting to keeping my elbow up on delivery, but the elbow drop feels so natural to me and when i focus on following through till it hit my chest, this naturally happens. In any case, i've had a quick go at attempting to delay the elbow drop by focusing more on driving with the hand. This is the result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RXGs...ature=youtu.be

About the shoulder being behind my head, i think i am going to have to leave this for a later time, and not work on too many things at once, but having my wrist cock, elbow, shoulder and head all aligned is what i will strive for in the future.

[DandyA]

Thanks so much for your detailed response Terry. Sorry if i sound ignorant, but is my grip fine then?

Regarding the two problems you have noticed, i have been aware of my severe elbow drop for some time but had no way of knowing how to correct it. I considered reverting to keeping my elbow up on delivery, but the elbow drop feels so natural to me and when i focus on following through till it hit my chest, this naturally happens. In any case, i've had a quick go at attempting to delay the elbow drop by focusing more on driving with the hand. This is the result:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RXGs...ature=youtu.be

About the shoulder being behind my head, i think i am going to have to leave this for a later time, and not work on too many things at once, but having my wrist cock, elbow, shoulder and head all aligned is what i will strive for in the future.

once again only my very amateur opinion so please feel free to ignore it ... but yes, I like this delivery a lot more ... I'm looking at the very back of the cue and you are setting your line at initial address, feathering and then delivering the cue exactly down that line - both horizontally (no up/down movement as in earlier videos) and vertically ... I like it and wish I could do the same consistently

there's no visible head or upper body movement either ... once again good, I like it ...

so I personally think you should try to cement this cue action ... whilst coaches (quite rightly and I appreciate their help on TSF) talk about ideal elbow drops and wrist position etc, at the end of the day, if you set your cue at address and then deliver the cue perfectly straight both horizontally and vertically, you are going to be a good player whatever elbow drop, wrist position or stance etc you use ... coaches advise these things as common factors for improving a player, and we should listen and I certainly do, but don't get too hung up on the techno-cueing stuff ...

one thing which you might like to think about on the video ... we see a line drawn on a piece of paper which I guess is the line you are aiming for ... as you drop down, you seem to be on that line but then move your butt slightly to the right, not very much on shot 1 but more noticeably on shot 2 ... it might be a camera angle thingy but you seem to be sighting dead straight but then aiming a tad left ... I'm not 100% sure but I mention it cos that's what I thought

with regards the cue shoulder behind the head, there are many pros who can't do it and neither can I ... however, I find Terry's advice to get your bridge arm shoulder low and as close to your cheek as possible really helps - my cue arm shoulder still isn't behind my head but it's locked in place, much less freedom to move - which really helps especially when using a bit of power ... I personally do it by pushing my bridge arm out straighter (not 100% straight but straighter) but there must be other ways to achieve the same effect ...