Eye Dominance, Sighting and the Cue

[Terry Davidson]

PP:

I think that 'nostril' thing is just FAR TOO MUCH INFO!!! Maybe you can stuff a wad of string up there and leave a tail of 4" or so hanging out and then checking to see if it's lined up with the centre of the cue? (just joking)

I think vmax is dead on here but that's only because that's the theory I use and I agree with him.

Terry

[Particle Physics]

It's the brain that deciphers whatever information the optic nerve sends to it. If a persons vision is slightly defective in one eye then the brain will do whatever is needed to sight as best as it can. With Joe Davis it was using one eye only as he was practically blind in the other. I doubt very much whether he played for years with the cue under his right eye, frustrated by his inability to play the game until he suddenly had a eureka moment and realised he was in fact almost blind in his right eye.
For most a simple eye test will tell you if you have defective vision in one or maybe both eyes. Most people do, absolute 20/20 vision is very rare and is one of the vagaries of human evolution, but most people, unless they have very bad defects, can get by, it's only when extreme accuracy is required that small defects can become apparent.
Those of us who have corrected vision by means of specs or contact lenses should have 20/20 vision and should therefore sight the snooker shots centre chin as both eyes have been corrected to be close to perfect. Those who don't need their vision to be corrected can have a dominant eye because, although their vision is not bad enough to need correction, very few people have both eyes exactly the same.
I use contact lenses and have a left lens and a right lens and cannot see properly if I mistakenly mix them up. My advice to anyone who thinks they have a dominant eye issue as to why they can't see the angles, is to have an eye test and find out for certain as your vision may need correcting. If it doesn't then your brain is quite capable of deciding how the shot is lined up without you having to think about it.
If your brain doesn't do this then you don't have a good natural hand/eye co-ordination and nothing you can do will make any difference, you are simply a poor player and twenty thousand years ago you would have been left to gather berries with the women and the myopic while the rest of the men went out hunting.

Forthright Steve! Yes, I used to have 20/20 vision in my youth, and am now slightly short sighted in both eyes, -1.25. I use contact lenses, but may buy a pair of Dennis Taylors sometime soon for a try. With my contacts in, I am still R eye dominant. I know this is true. I lean to the left of the seat when driving, and I believe this is because I want to see more of the road ahead with my R eye; it's subconscious, it's my brain moving my body across so it can view from it's preferred lens. If at a computer, I will naturally set up so my R eye has the best view of the screen, and at that distance I have perfect focus from both eyes. I don't intend to do it, it just happens. I wish I was using both eyes to equal effect, to give perfect, balanced stereo vision, but I don't. So I have to deal with it. There are probably only two or three ways forward. Playing under one eye is one choice, that a lot of pros have chosen, Judd, Melbourne Machine, Joe Davis (out of necessity) Jamie Jones, the Northern Irish lad who always comes out with choice quotes; a lot of players.

[vmax4steve]

I don't buy the finger test as a valid test. When I do the test I get the same result as you, yet the correct position for the cue, for me, is to the left of my chin. I found this correct position through trial and error, it is the position in which I see the table as it actually is and therefore judge the angles right. It's the position I was using naturally before I heard about left/right eye dominance and other such nonsense and mistakenly changed what I was using naturally.

It's the brain that deciphers whatever information the optic nerve sends to it. If a persons vision is slightly defective in one eye then the brain will do whatever is needed to sight as best as it can. With Joe Davis it was using one eye only as he was practically blind in the other. I doubt very much whether he played for years with the cue under his right eye, frustrated by his inability to play the game until he suddenly had a eureka moment and realised he was in fact almost blind in his right eye.
For most a simple eye test will tell you if you have defective vision in one or maybe both eyes. Most people do, absolute 20/20 vision is very rare and is one of the vagaries of human evolution, but most people, unless they have very bad defects, can get by, it's only when extreme accuracy is required that small defects can become apparent.
Those of us who have corrected vision by means of specs or contact lenses should have 20/20 vision and should therefore sight the snooker shots centre chin as both eyes have been corrected to be close to perfect. Those who don't need their vision to be corrected can have a dominant eye because, although their vision is not bad enough to need correction, very few people have both eyes exactly the same.
I use contact lenses and have a left lens and a right lens and cannot see properly if I mistakenly mix them up. My advice to anyone who thinks they have a dominant eye issue as to why they can't see the angles, is to have an eye test and find out for certain as your vision may need correcting. If it doesn't then your brain is quite capable of deciding how the shot is lined up without you having to think about it.
If your brain doesn't do this then you don't have a good natural hand/eye co-ordination and nothing you can do will make any difference, you are simply a poor player and twenty thousand years ago you would have been left to gather berries with the women and the myopic while the rest of the men went out hunting.

[Particle Physics]

Wow, this thread got heated! Luckily, these are good guys trying to help a newish player with some honest, but well meaning advice. That's why it's the best part of the site, because folk genuinely try to help each other's games. And there's nothing more important than actually playing snooker.

Terry, Nrage, LMA, VMax: I spent three hours today on the practice table. I fiddled here, I fiddled there, and found a wee golden fleece. Putting the cue under the R side of my chin (foot in line, bent cueing arm, L foot square of R foot, leaning fwd a few inches, shoulder on chin, or just underneath it for some middle table shots) I potted every shot imaginable and cleared the line up. I put the white ball on the green spot and potted the black first attempt. I know that I saw the angle correctly for the first time in god knows how long, if I ever have before? Pinks into the middle with the white ball on the top cushion or over a corner pocket were 50/50 but that's a massive improvement, and those shots should improve as confidence grows. 1/4 ball blacks, no problem, long blues, no problem, potting the yellow into the bottom pocket with the white near the baulk cushion; not bad success.

I even found that if I position the cue so it's kinda connected by a line to my R nostril, my rest play improves 100% or more.

The upshot of this adjustment, is that I was able to play the white ball the way I wanted to, to get it into the next position, instead of worrying if the angle was correct, missing the pot, and messing up the position. I was able to screw two or three times as far, because I was concentrating on driving the cue ball. I could do this because the angle had taken care of itself.

One thing I did that was a bit different when getting down, was to try and connect the white to the object ball to the pocket, focusing on each in turn, then finally only looking at the object ball. Visualisation I think it's called, and it's something that Alex Higgins (RIP) and Hendry do. It's like feeling the pot going in before you've taken the shot. Anyway, in combo with the cue position change, it worked a treat. I kept the cue pointing to the cue ball straight (didn't try any shots with side today), and visualised the angles with both eyes open (though I suspect my R eye was being used by brain to make the analysis).

I can understand what you guys say about the theory behind this, and you have made strong, rational arguments that make sense and I believe you, because you don't talk rubbish, you just come out with great advice.. But what I found today is nothing short of the biggest and most successful change I've made since I picked up a cue for snooker. I can see 89 degree angles and pot the thinnest of shots once again, like I did in my youth, on the pool table. It's incredible. I still don't believe it happened. I'm not making this up, and I don't think I'm dreaming but potting those type of shots is what I've dreamed of. I was pretty happy potting long balls last week, but this is off the radar.

All I can say to others, is give it a try, there's nothing to lose. You will know within half a hour if it's for you. Try cueing under both eyes, and in between, as Nrage says. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost much. If it works, well.................

[nrage]

I know what you're saying about the finger test Nrage, but studies using high tech equipment confirm that most folk (70%) are R eye dominant.

Sure, but unless you're going to close the other eye you're still using both eyes and binocular vision to aim, and the important factor is not which eye is dominant but "are you seeing what is really there?" parallax and other effects can make the correct line of aim look wrong, and vice-versa. Placing the cue directly under the dominant eye will not solve this problem, rather it's just as wrong as every other position except for the one single position in which you see what's really there.

In short, the correct place for you to place your cue is unique to you and not the same as everyone else with the same dominant eye - otherwise 70% of top snooker players would have the cue in the exact same place, and the other 30% in the opposite exact same place.. but the reality is that people place the cue in a range of positions from extreme left to right.

One other point, in most of the sports/games where eye dominance is talked about, and seen as important, the body is placed side on i.e. archery, darts, etc. Whereas with snooker you're face on, or perhaps with a slight twist like Terry. It's a funny thing, but if you twist your head you actually move both eyes closer together WRT to the line your sighting down, so you don't just move one eye over the center, you move them both. If you turn far enough the eye at the back is likely obscured and not being used - again, nothing like snooker.

[Terry Davidson]

lmalexa:

If you can see the balls clearly at 12ft, which sounds doubtful in your case, I would recommend turning your head slightly to the right but keeping the cue at middle chin. If you can wear contact lenses (like me) to correct both eyes to 100% (20-20 in layman's terms) then I would recommend keeping the head straight and cueing centre-chin unless you're an old b*astard like me and need to turn the head slightly to maintain comfort in the upper spine

Terry

[LittleMissAlexa]

particle:

Pay attention to what nrage is telling you. The idea of a 'preferred' or 'dominant' eye is complete and utter nonsense and only came into being because of Joe Davis who was virtually blind in his right eye so he had to cue under the left.

If a player has normal vision out of both eyes or vision which can be corrected with glasses or contacts then he should be using both eyes when aiming and sighting a shot. If a player is blind in one eye then he should consider moving the cue underneath that eye.

Now let me provve this is so...first of all, where is your head when you select the line of aim? It should be up over the shot and then you drop the head STRAIGHT DOWN. If you are confirming and adjusting the line of aim while down on the shot you are making one HUGE mistake. From above the shot and selecting the line of aim would be exactly the same as driving a car where a driver doesn't turn the head one way or another and also doesn't move the head over towards the window or towards the passenger seat to get his vision out of his 'preferred' eye so he can drive safely.

For snooker and driving and almost every other sighting activity we need the binocular vision of both eyes for depth perception and spatial recognition and only those blind in one eye cannot get this right and need to move the cue.

The big question I get, and as you mentioned there are pros with the cue running on one side of the chin or another. Next time you can just go up to Robertson and ask him why his cue is under one side of his chin. I bet (if he can explain it) it will be nothing to do with his 'dominant eye' but rather the natural set-up he has adopted in order to drive the cue straight along his selected line of aim, WHICH HE CHOSE WHILE STANDING UP!

So, I'll say it again...listen to nrage as he is telling you what is real regarding this preferred eye nonsense. It's more to do with the set-up which is natural to your own individual physique and also getting your brain that binocular picture.

Now, you didn't mention but if you are virtually blind in one eye or else (like me) you have very poor vision in one eye which can't be corrected then you can consider putting the cue to one side under the stronger eye. My right eye, after cataract surgery, is very blurry and no contact lense or glasses is able to correct it and I can't get LASIK surgery. In video analysis I noticed I keep my head turned slightly to the right so the cue is still on the centre of my chin but a little more under the left eye.

Then when I looked at this and tried to get my head straight I realized why I was doing it and it was for COMFORT. Trying to keep my head up and centered gave me a pain in the upper spine and that's the ONLY reason I turn my head. So I will say again, forget all about the preferred or dominant eye theory and concentrate on staying comfortable and still on the shot.

Terry

terry my vision is 20 percent in right eye 50 percent in left am i ok to sight with one eye?

[denja]

Match table we used had two Ds marked. Unreal.

Rileys ! take your own brush, iron, spirit level, pair of ear plugs, a course in karate (out of control yobs on pool tables) and you may enjoy your game.

[Terry Davidson]

particle:

As a further comment. Do the exercise that nrage recommended regarding the long straight pots to the edge of the leather however when down on the shot close each eye alternately and see from which eye does the cue look to be on the correct line of aim when down on the shot. that will mean for an 11ft shot that's the eye you use.

If you want to test your aiming, do this. Take three reds and line them up on the top cushion so the dentre red is behind the black spot and in the middle of the cushion. Now take away the centre red and move the other two reds only 1/8th inch out and now from the brown spot try and hit the top cushion without disturbing the reds. Do not do this at pace, just hard enough for the cueball to come back to the brown spot (or actually your tip). The table you use must be fairly level.

This exercise is one very difficult thing to do and at 1/8" spacing it's almost impossible but it will confirm two things. Number one is you are selecting the correct line of aim (no matter which eye you're using) and two...you are also delivering the cue straight

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

particle:

Pay attention to what nrage is telling you. (edited for manu147) The idea that the 'preferred' or 'dominant' eye must be over the cue is complete and utter nonsense and only came into being because of Joe Davis who was virtually blind in his right eye so he had to cue under the left.

If a player has normal vision out of both eyes or vision which can be corrected with glasses or contacts then he should be using both eyes when aiming and sighting a shot. If a player is blind in one eye then he should consider moving the cue underneath that eye.

Now let me prove this is so...first of all, where is your head when you select the line of aim? It should be up over the shot and then you drop the head STRAIGHT DOWN. If you are confirming and adjusting the line of aim while down on the shot you are making one HUGE mistake. From above the shot and selecting the line of aim would be exactly the same as driving a car where a driver doesn't turn the head one way or another and also doesn't move the head over towards the window or towards the passenger seat to get his vision out of his 'preferred' eye (behind the steering wheel) so he can drive safely.

For snooker and driving and almost every other sighting activity we need the binocular vision of both eyes for depth perception and spatial recognition (aiming) and only those blind in one eye cannot get this right and need to move the cue.

The big question I get, and as you mentioned there are pros with the cue running on one side of the chin or another. Next time you can just go up to Robertson and ask him why his cue is under one side of his chin. I bet (if he can explain it) it will be nothing to do with his 'dominant eye' but rather the natural set-up he has adopted in order to drive the cue straight along his selected line of aim, WHICH HE CHOSE WHILE STANDING UP!

So, I'll say it again...listen to nrage as he is telling you what is real regarding this preferred eye nonsense. It's more to do with the set-up which is natural to your own individual physique and also getting your brain that binocular picture.

Now, you didn't mention but if you are virtually blind in one eye or else (like me) you have very poor vision in one eye which can't be corrected then you can consider putting the cue to one side under the stronger eye. My right eye, after cataract surgery, is very blurry and no contact lense or glasses is able to correct it and I can't get LASIK surgery. In video analysis I noticed I keep my head turned slightly to the right so the cue is still on the centre of my chin but a little more under the left eye.

Then when I looked at this and tried to get my head straight I realized why I was doing it and it was for COMFORT. Trying to keep my head up and centered gave me a pain in the upper spine and that's the ONLY reason I turn my head. So I will say again, forget all about the preferred or dominant eye theory (over the cue) and concentrate on staying comfortable and still on the shot.

Terry

[Particle Physics]

I think that probably indicates fairly balanced selection of eye going on in your brain. If I concentrate I can "select" the eye to make "dominant" on the finger test - much like how you can see the 2 pictures in an optical illusion.

Ultimately the finger test is forcing the brain to pick an eye, but if you don't force it to it will happily use /both/. Which is why picking one and putting the cue under it is just plain bonkers - because you don't play with one eye closed do you?

Another thing .. depth perception /requires/ 2 points of reference minimum and part of aiming requires judging distance between balls, between where the ball is and where the pocket is - in order to judge the angle needed to pot it, etc. So, you /must/ be using both eyes to aim, or you would really struggle.

Another thing that always bugged me about the finger test is that distance matters (because the brain can and will select (if forced to) different eyes for different distances .. so if you do the test with a long distance object (more than 12 ft away) you might only be finding your long distance eye, and not the one which your brain prefers for shorter < 12 ft distances. Likewise, perhaps you brain favours one eye for < 6ft distances.. in which case the eye it uses may change shot by shot.

All in all, forcing the brain to use just one eye is simply a bad idea, and placing the cue under just one eye will only make it harder for the brain to do it's job, tho, if you try hard enough you will eventually train it to manage despite this.

I know what you're saying about the finger test Nrage, but studies using high tech equipment confirm that most folk (70%) are R eye dominant. Of course, if you patch one eye, the brain will begin receiving images from the other lens out of necessity. I meant to ask an eye surgeon about this the last time I saw him and forgot. Damn. I wonder if my left eye can be switched on through patching? I just did a wee experiment. I stared at the potting angle with my left eye (R eye closed), lined up and got down, played the pot with both eyes open and it went in no bother, from various angles. I wonder if the L eye line up compensates for the R eye dominance once down on the shot? Patching may be the answer, I'm gonna have to ask someone about this, not just for snooker, but for shooting as well. 50/50 stereo vision with good depth of field would be useful for so many aspects of life.

[nrage]

I agree that the finger test is not much use.

I had the same issue with the SightRight board - when I get down on the shot I can see 2 lines i.e. double when I'm on the shot, one from each eye. I can make both lines the "correct" line by moving my head one way and closing one eye or moving my head the other way and closing the other eye. With 2 eyes open there are 2 lines, same as the finger test (I always see 2 pieces of chalk).

I think that probably indicates fairly balanced selection of eye going on in your brain. If I concentrate I can "select" the eye to make "dominant" on the finger test - much like how you can see the 2 pictures in an optical illusion.

Ultimately the finger test is forcing the brain to pick an eye, but if you don't force it to it will happily use /both/. Which is why picking one and putting the cue under it is just plain bonkers - because you don't play with one eye closed do you?

Another thing .. depth perception /requires/ 2 points of reference minimum and part of aiming requires judging distance between balls, between where the ball is and where the pocket is - in order to judge the angle needed to pot it, etc. So, you /must/ be using both eyes to aim, or you would really struggle.

Another thing that always bugged me about the finger test is that distance matters (because the brain can and will select (if forced to) different eyes for different distances .. so if you do the test with a long distance object (more than 12 ft away) you might only be finding your long distance eye, and not the one which your brain prefers for shorter < 12 ft distances. Likewise, perhaps you brain favours one eye for < 6ft distances.. in which case the eye it uses may change shot by shot.

All in all, forcing the brain to use just one eye is simply a bad idea, and placing the cue under just one eye will only make it harder for the brain to do it's job, tho, if you try hard enough you will eventually train it to manage despite this.

[Particle Physics]

I don't buy the finger test as a valid test. When I do the test I get the same result as you, yet the correct position for the cue, for me, is to the left of my chin. I found this correct position through trial and error, it is the position in which I see the table as it actually is and therefore judge the angles right. It's the position I was using naturally before I heard about left/right eye dominance and other such nonsense and mistakenly changed what I was using naturally.

So, IMO, don't change anything based on the finger test or any other test. Instead, get a mate to hold the cue on the line of aim for a straight, long shot to the edge of the pocket leather (which is a more precise point than the whole pocket itself). Get down over the cue and move your head side to side until the shot "looks" perfect. Remember this head/chin position and find a stance which makes it natural/comfortable. Then, pot a load of balls and see how it goes.

Wow, I'm going to have to try that as well. I did pot some balls on the pool table last night with left eye over cue just for an out of curiosity, though this doesn't count as pool is pretty easy and can't be scaled up to 13 foot pots on a snooker table. Like you say, I'll just have to experiment.

[Gerry Armstrong]

I don't buy the finger test as a valid test. When I do the test I get the same result as you, yet the correct position for the cue, for me, is to the left of my chin. I found this correct position through trial and error, it is the position in which I see the table as it actually is and therefore judge the angles right. It's the position I was using naturally before I heard about left/right eye dominance and other such nonsense and mistakenly changed what I was using naturally.

So, IMO, don't change anything based on the finger test or any other test. Instead, get a mate to hold the cue on the line of aim for a straight, long shot to the edge of the pocket leather (which is a more precise point than the whole pocket itself). Get down over the cue and move your head side to side until the shot "looks" perfect. Remember this head/chin position and find a stance which makes it natural/comfortable. Then, pot a load of balls and see how it goes.

I agree that the finger test is not much use.

I had the same issue with the SightRight board - when I get down on the shot I can see 2 lines i.e. double when I'm on the shot, one from each eye. I can make both lines the "correct" line by moving my head one way and closing one eye or moving my head the other way and closing the other eye. With 2 eyes open there are 2 lines, same as the finger test (I always see 2 pieces of chalk).

[nrage]

My dominance means that on the finger test, the finger is exactly where it is with my left eye closed, compared to both eyes open.

I don't buy the finger test as a valid test. When I do the test I get the same result as you, yet the correct position for the cue, for me, is to the left of my chin. I found this correct position through trial and error, it is the position in which I see the table as it actually is and therefore judge the angles right. It's the position I was using naturally before I heard about left/right eye dominance and other such nonsense and mistakenly changed what I was using naturally.

So, IMO, don't change anything based on the finger test or any other test. Instead, get a mate to hold the cue on the line of aim for a straight, long shot to the edge of the pocket leather (which is a more precise point than the whole pocket itself). Get down over the cue and move your head side to side until the shot "looks" perfect. Remember this head/chin position and find a stance which makes it natural/comfortable. Then, pot a load of balls and see how it goes.