It is in the Grip after all.

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

When we chatted last I thought you had agreed not to lengthen your cue. Remember adding 2 inches to your cue will change the shaft flex and make it a little more whippier and it might even feel like a totally new cue and you may not be able to get on with it. I still think 58" is plenty of length for your height.

One other thing on the grip. When you posted your videos I said at the time your biggest problem was you changed the bend in the wrist as you delivered the cue. Try keeping the back of your palm on the butt of the cue at address and keeping it there during the entire delivery (of course it must come off the cue near the end of a longer backswing).

The golden rule is 'DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION OF THE GRIP HAND DURING THE DELIVERY' and this statement is directed primarily at the wrist joint which should not alter at all during the delivery and indeed during the backswing too.

If you cannot easily set up the video again then get one of your mates to look at the bend in your wrist joint from behind at the address position and then deliver a power shot and leave the cue extended and have you mate see if the wrist joint angle is the same. If it is not then you still have that problem and you cannot bend the wrist joint without taking the butt of the cue off-line. Try it and see if you do not believe that

Terry

[Sidd]

we both know its not really the solution, but if you want the buzz of getting a new toy by all means get a longer cue.
whats the length of your cue now and how long will be the new one?

I so wanted to get the new toy but nothing good was available up to my specifications within my budget. So I have given my own cue for alteration and now when it comes back it will be 60 inches long rather than 58 inches which it was before.

Yes I know that however the longer cue would actually enable me in placing it closer to the CB as well as keeping my grip arm vertical on the butt in a relaxed manner, previously when I wanted to keep my cueing arm vertical at address I did not have enough cue and my little finger or last two fingers tended to get off the butt... So this will give me some comfort in keeping the tip closer to the CB as well as having my cueing arm at vertical at address and still have an inch or less behind it.

[j6uk]

we both know its not really the solution, but if you want the buzz of getting a new toy by all means get a longer cue.
whats the length of your cue now and how long will be the new one?

The longer cue is my solution to have the elbow drop after the strike and not before it so this factor shall be removed physically as well as from the mind

[Sidd]

not in the grip but the elbow.. oh and of course the mind

The longer cue is my solution to have the elbow drop after the strike and not before it so this factor shall be removed physically as well as from the mind

[Sidd]

Sidd:

I believe I've mentioned this before many times and a few times directly to you. As Steve says all the pros hold the cue differently (among other things). I think from this we can deduce the actual CONFIGURATION of the grip is not the primary thing we should concentrate on.

But with their different grips what all the pros do in common (the good ones anyway) is the configuration of the grip doesn't change on the backswing or delivery. Yes, every one of them allows the last 3 (or 2) fingers to be pushed out of the way at the end of the longer backswings however those last 3 (or 2) fingers do not tighten on the cue until well after the strike and in fact it is right at the same time as the back of their thumb hits the chest or at the end of the delivery if they don't use the chest as a stopper.

Personally I've found using a wrap-around grip and using ONLY the 2nd finger, with the thumb resting against the loose forefinger and pointing straight down along with getting the chest and chin right down onto the cue and not allowing the cue off the chest has helped me a lot as I am now automatically stopping the cue at the end of my acceleration by using the back 3 fingers and I'm getting the 'snap' and also on hard shots my elbow is dropping a little at the end of the delivery.

One more point...giving a new grip just 2 days trial is not the best thing to do. Pick one of those grips you tried (I would recommend either thumb and forefinger or else 2nd finger only) and try it out for a few weeks, maybe a total of 10 practice sessions and see what happens.

Terry

Hi there Coach,

Yes indeed they are different in their technique and use what suits them and this can also be used as a guide for us to understand that there is no single way of playing this game. You need to identify what works best for you and then stick to it. Its just that when whatever it is that works best for me happens for me, it happens only once I do not realize it is happening and therefore afterwards I cannot remember whatever is was that happened Silly me but yeah that is true.

I shall be getting a longer cue and I think it will help me have a better stance around it including having the ease of putting the tip just close to the CB without having to have my cueing arm forwards of vertical at the back. Once that is achieved with this longer cue (I am altering my Peradon to be 60") I would be able to have my normal follow through and yes I do drop the elbow but with this longer cue I am sure that the elbow drop will happen after the strike for sure.

As for the grip yes indeed I will follow your recommendation and t to see what suits me better i.e. first finger or second finger and then stick to it. You are right on this account that 1 or 2 days is not enough to understand what grip works best for you. I will have to stick with one grip in think and thin and bear the bad days without thinking again there is something wrong with the grip etc... Pretty hard for me but it has been enough tinkering and experimentation already ... I am determined to control my thought process at the table this time.

I will use the second finger grip and try to have my palm touch the cue at address and then forget about it... someone rightly pointed out in another thread that he forms the grip while standing and then forgets about it.. I will have to do something like that.

I personally think having all these things sorted out i.e. the grip as well as the longer cue and stance adjustment accoding to the new length... I shall be ok with everything and then its concentration on the game and nothing else... And yes you are right about the chin and the chest... the chest follows the cue and not the other way round.... I shall keep that in mind too.

Regards,
Sidd.

[DG GIBERT]

not in the grip but the elbow.. oh and of course the mind

Don't start that thinking about not thinking again

[j6uk]

not in the grip but the elbow.. oh and of course the mind

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

I believe I've mentioned this before many times and a few times directly to you. As Steve says all the pros hold the cue differently (among other things). I think from this we can deduce the actual CONFIGURATION of the grip is not the primary thing we should concentrate on.

But with their different grips what all the pros do in common (the good ones anyway) is the configuration of the grip doesn't change on the backswing or delivery. Yes, every one of them allows the last 3 (or 2) fingers to be pushed out of the way at the end of the longer backswings however those last 3 (or 2) fingers do not tighten on the cue until well after the strike and in fact it is right at the same time as the back of their thumb hits the chest or at the end of the delivery if they don't use the chest as a stopper.

Personally I've found using a wrap-around grip and using ONLY the 2nd finger, with the thumb resting against the loose forefinger and pointing straight down along with getting the chest and chin right down onto the cue and not allowing the cue off the chest has helped me a lot as I am now automatically stopping the cue at the end of my acceleration by using the back 3 fingers and I'm getting the 'snap' and also on hard shots my elbow is dropping a little at the end of the delivery.

One more point...giving a new grip just 2 days trial is not the best thing to do. Pick one of those grips you tried (I would recommend either thumb and forefinger or else 2nd finger only) and try it out for a few weeks, maybe a total of 10 practice sessions and see what happens.

Terry

[Sidd]

What all the pros have in common is to be able to see the correct line of aim and put the cue on it, eye on the object ball at the moment of the strike without dropping the elbow and playing from the shoulder before the strike and keeping still on the shot.

They stand differently, hold the cue differently, sight with different eyes, some feather a lot, some feather very little, some don't feather at all, some have a front pause, some a rear pause, some have a front and a rear pause, some a long backswing, some a short backswing, some have a short follow through without dropping the elbow at all, some drop the elbow just after the strike and have a long follow through, some stay down until the object ball drops, some don't, some have their elbow outside the line of aim, some inside, some have perfectly straight alignment with the elbow and shoulder dead on the line of aim, some have a straight bridge arm, some have a bent bridge arm, some bend both knees some bend only one, some bend neither, some a square stance, some a boxer stance the list goes on.

When you have your longer cue it will fit a natural way for you to play without having to make any compromises to your stance and how you sight with regards to fitting your body inside a length of cue that is too short for you.
Simply pick it up like pottr says and play with it without any more thought about the right technique. The right technique is one that is right for you and you will be able to find it if you don't think about it.
Go back to the beginning, pick up your cue and simply keep your eyes on the object ball at the moment of the strike because your concerns about elbow drop and bridge length will no longer apply.
As for your grip, well you have proved that you play well with any grip you have tried, and also play just as badly so the reason for playing badly or playing well has nothing to do with your grip.

Thanks mate. You are right. I am glad that I did my cue and now that once it is back i will not have to twist myself to fit in but shall hopefully feel rather relax with it.. If it is to help my premature elbow drop I am gonna love it trust me I also agree that the right technique only comes to you once you stop thinking about it

[vmax4steve]

By the Way Steve, are you 100% sure that the configuration and formation of my last grip has got nothing to do with this... I held the cue with the inner of my forefinger and thumb and made my palm touch the cue in the address position. I personally feel the feeling it gave me was something I had never experienced before... so much in control and so much effortless... ??? i felt in my mind that perhaps this is how the pros hold it and thought I am almost there with my grip... Is it all in the mind then ???

What all the pros have in common is to be able to see the correct line of aim and put the cue on it, eye on the object ball at the moment of the strike without dropping the elbow and playing from the shoulder before the strike and keeping still on the shot.

They stand differently, hold the cue differently, sight with different eyes, some feather a lot, some feather very little, some don't feather at all, some have a front pause, some a rear pause, some have a front and a rear pause, some a long backswing, some a short backswing, some have a short follow through without dropping the elbow at all, some drop the elbow just after the strike and have a long follow through, some stay down until the object ball drops, some don't, some have their elbow outside the line of aim, some inside, some have perfectly straight alignment with the elbow and shoulder dead on the line of aim, some have a straight bridge arm, some have a bent bridge arm, some bend both knees some bend only one, some bend neither, some a square stance, some a boxer stance the list goes on.

When you have your longer cue it will fit a natural way for you to play without having to make any compromises to your stance and how you sight with regards to fitting your body inside a length of cue that is too short for you.
Simply pick it up like pottr says and play with it without any more thought about the right technique. The right technique is one that is right for you and you will be able to find it if you don't think about it.
Go back to the beginning, pick up your cue and simply keep your eyes on the object ball at the moment of the strike because your concerns about elbow drop and bridge length will no longer apply.
As for your grip, well you have proved that you play well with any grip you have tried, and also play just as badly so the reason for playing badly or playing well has nothing to do with your grip.

[Sidd]

By the Way Steve, are you 100% sure that the configuration and formation of my last grip has got nothing to do with this... I held the cue with the inner of my forefinger and thumb and made my palm touch the cue in the address position. I personally feel the feeling it gave me was something I had never experienced before... so much in control and so much effortless... ??? i felt in my mind that perhaps this is how the pros hold it and thought I am almost there with my grip... Is it all in the mind then ???

[Sidd]

This should tell you immediately that the improvement was nothing to do with your new grip, that what was happening was having only one thought in your mind, your new grip, was making you stop thinking about everything like you usually do, and doing the basics consistantly and therefore potting well.
You went in the next day with a little anxiety in your mind as to whether the new grip would work again, putting pressure on yourself and when you missed that first easy pot then all the old thoughts returned.

I stated this a couple of years ago that constant tinkering will produce this effect now and again, playing just as well or badly with different techniques will introduce anxiety and therefore negativity into your thought process.
When a new technique works for just a short time all that's happening is what Terry states as having one swing thought in your mind to fix on that negates all the other thoughts that can invade your mind and gives you a better chance of simply playing on a subconscious level.

100% is the mind Sidd, you can do it as you have proved many times with many differing techniques. Your new cue should be the catalyst for relaxing and simply playing with no reason at all to tinker any longer.
Find the line of aim, put the cue on it, look at the object ball at the moment of the strike to keep the cue on line, those are the basics and must be adhered to.

You are right Steve. Inasmuch as the grip is concerned, I remember having changed it at least 4 to 5 times and every time when I changed it, on the first day, I played exceptionally well with it and thought I was there... only to find out that the very next day I cant find it anywhere... My recent experiments have been:

1. making a ring with forefinger and thumb and resting the last three fingers. day1 break of 40 day 2 nothing
2. making the ring with first two fingers and thumb and resting the last two fingers gently. day1 8 frames won in a row with extreme potting day2 lost and confused and missing
3. Using the finger and thumb but keeping the little finger off the butt at all times. day1 all long pots going in day2 nothing working right
4. Touching the palm on the top of the butt at address and keeping the web of thumb and first finger a bit wide. day1 three breaks of 40 odds day2 damn damn damn
5. holding with inside of thumb and forefinger and not exerting any pressure from anywhere else i.r. the wrist hand fingers etc. day1 wow smooth silk cueing day2 pathetic
5. Alex higgins grip coupled with palm touching dell hill method. Day1 winning 9 out of 10 frames breaks of 30 and 40 odds at a regular level ... 1 to 2 in every frame till 10 frames like a blood potting hound day2 I POTTED 6 BALLS IN THREE FRAMES IN TOTAL and lost miserably and was made a laughing stock.

the same has been the case with elbow, stance, swinging the hip, chest on chest off, favouring left eye not favouring any eye etc etc ... I am however determined that as soon as my longer cue arrives- by Thursday hopefully- I will go and pick up the cue just like that and just start to play without tinkering on anything .... I hope so.... and prove myself to myself

I think this is more of a case of proving myself to myself for me now. I hope I can put my mind to rest.

[Sidd]

Put the cue on the table. Pick it up with the minimum amount of force required so that it won't slip...

That's your grip.
Don't grip too tight, but don't let it slip out your hand. Simple.

Heard it many time ... cant really get it settled in my mind thanks

[vmax4steve]

I went straight to the club and held the cue in the second finger however what I added with it was to have my palm touching the cue at address which when I did my cue went to the last finger pads of the back fingers and my grip sort of cocked out from the back a bit- do not know this for sure but it sure felt like that... and something miraculous happened. Something that I had not experienced before. I started driving the cue effortlessly and my potting accuracy went to a record high for me in years. I was playing and I did not feel as if I was hitting the CB at all and it just felt like hitting thin air or something made of light plastic and also then my cue (19 oz) felt in my hands as if it has lost weight like it felt really light... My control, potting, positioning everything went up high like never ever before. I cant forget that feeling.

The next day I went in determined to keep that on and play just like that no matter what and... I played miserably.. missing everything on the table easy pots long pots everything... I kept playing like that and kept thinking where I was wrong... Yes one thing was for sure ... that feel... that feel was not there anymore... the feel that made me think I was hitting a light object and not the CB

This should tell you immediately that the improvement was nothing to do with your new grip, that what was happening was having only one thought in your mind, your new grip, was making you stop thinking about everything like you usually do, and doing the basics consistantly and therefore potting well.
You went in the next day with a little anxiety in your mind as to whether the new grip would work again, putting pressure on yourself and when you missed that first easy pot then all the old thoughts returned.

I stated this a couple of years ago that constant tinkering will produce this effect now and again, playing just as well or badly with different techniques will introduce anxiety and therefore negativity into your thought process.
When a new technique works for just a short time all that's happening is what Terry states as having one swing thought in your mind to fix on that negates all the other thoughts that can invade your mind and gives you a better chance of simply playing on a subconscious level.

100% is the mind Sidd, you can do it as you have proved many times with many differing techniques. Your new cue should be the catalyst for relaxing and simply playing with no reason at all to tinker any longer.
Find the line of aim, put the cue on it, look at the object ball at the moment of the strike to keep the cue on line, those are the basics and must be adhered to.

[ibogine]

i also have had that nice feeling recently - some nice and straight backswing and nice forward stroke with a light grip without tightening but then the other day i felt i lost that feeling and came back to my old bad habit. Frustrating too say the least, but only time can cure it, I assume.