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body anatomy relation to cueing

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  • body anatomy relation to cueing

    hi everyone i think this may be a strange question but can body anatomy inhibit someone from having a straight stroke?

    some people have asymmetrical skeletons (one arm more internally rotated and lower than the other,one leg shorter than the other,pelvis out of alignment etc and conditions like scoliosis and i wonder how/if this relates to the stroke.for example if someone has a misaligned jaw and his chin points slightly to one side,he will never be able to open and close his mouth in a straight line,his lower jaw will always veer slightly to one side as he opens his mouth.

    i'm wondering if the same can be true for the way someone's arm swings when moving the cue,because it always amazed me how some people can learn to stroke straight very quickly while others struggle for years and never make it,i mean how difficult can it be to move a piece of wood in a straight line?

    if someone in this thread claims that everybody can have a straight stroke,i want him to prove this with proper arguments and evidence.also if someone is a physical therapist or a chiropractor,i'm eager to hear his opinion..
    Last edited by kflps; 18th June 2020, 06:55 PM.

  • #2
    The forearm has two bones attached to the elbow, the ulna by a hinge joint that can only move forwards and backwards and the radius that can twist the forearm 180 degrees, the shoulder is a universal joint and can move in any direction, the wrist can move the hand side to side and forwards and backwards, the fingers and thumb of the hand are all independant and have three joints in each one and can open and close as one or independantly.
    You need to get the butt of the cue on the line of aim, address tip of the cue to the centre of the cue ball, lock the shoulder and wrist joints, don't move the body or head and then the elbow will only move the cue forwards and backwards as long as you don't bring the radius bone into the stroke which will twist the wrist and therefore the hand and therefore the cue.
    Some players have the elbow of the cue arm directly on the line of aim and can to a certain extent drop the upper arm from the shoulder as they deliver the cue, those who don't have the elbow of their cue arm on the line of aim must ensure that the upper arm doesn't drop from the shoulder on the delivery stroke before the strike as that will always make them cue across the line of aim as the upper arm drops down at an angle to the line of aim.
    That's just the cueing arm without bringing the fingers of the grip hand into the equation which can be a minefield in itself.

    After that we can get into bridge arm/hand and bridge position, feet placement and stance, hand/eye co-ordination, dominant/submissive eye sighting, eye movements and where to focus etc etc.
    It's certainly not as easy as moving the cue in a straight line forwards and backwards twelve inches, which should,as you say, be easy enough.

    All these topics have been discussed in the coaching section over the years, arguments aplenty as to what is deemed to be correct, and then there's Joe Swail

    Speak up, you've got to speak up against the madness, you've got speak your mind if you dare
    but don't try to get yourself elected, for if you do you'll have to cut your hair

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    • #3
      It's all muscle memory. The same as someone playing the violin, and bowing straight. Once you've done it enough times, it doesn't feel unnatural. I don't think science or anatomy has a huge bearing, other than some people may be more naturally adept at cueing straight. Pro snooker players have played for 10s of thousands of hours. They didn't all just pick up a cue and have a perfect stroke.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vmax View Post
        The forearm has two bones attached to the elbow, the ulna by a hinge joint that can only move forwards and backwards and the radius that can twist the forearm 180 degrees, the shoulder is a universal joint and can move in any direction, the wrist can move the hand side to side and forwards and backwards, the fingers and thumb of the hand are all independant and have three joints in each one and can open and close as one or independantly.
        You need to get the butt of the cue on the line of aim, address tip of the cue to the centre of the cue ball, lock the shoulder and wrist joints, don't move the body or head and then the elbow will only move the cue forwards and backwards as long as you don't bring the radius bone into the stroke which will twist the wrist and therefore the hand and therefore the cue.
        Some players have the elbow of the cue arm directly on the line of aim and can to a certain extent drop the upper arm from the shoulder as they deliver the cue, those who don't have the elbow of their cue arm on the line of aim must ensure that the upper arm doesn't drop from the shoulder on the delivery stroke before the strike as that will always make them cue across the line of aim as the upper arm drops down at an angle to the line of aim.
        That's just the cueing arm without bringing the fingers of the grip hand into the equation which can be a minefield in itself.

        After that we can get into bridge arm/hand and bridge position, feet placement and stance, hand/eye co-ordination, dominant/submissive eye sighting, eye movements and where to focus etc etc.
        It's certainly not as easy as moving the cue in a straight line forwards and backwards twelve inches, which should,as you say, be easy enough.

        All these topics have been discussed in the coaching section over the years, arguments aplenty as to what is deemed to be correct, and then there's Joe Swail

        how can you not bring the radius into the shot?it's a forearm bone and the forearm is in constant motion,i'm having a hard time imagining this,can you explain?

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        • #5
          also why does the elbow of some players move side to side during the stroke,while in other's it only moves straight back and forth?what is the difference in their anatomy?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by kflps View Post

            how can you not bring the radius into the shot?it's a forearm bone and the forearm is in constant motion,i'm having a hard time imagining this,can you explain?
            The radius is purely for twisting the forearm so that the hand can rotate, make a fist and rotate your hand and you'll find that it's the radius bone that's moving, the wrist can only move the hand forwards and backwards and side to side. The ulna only moves the forearm backwards and forwards so it's this joint that matters in the delivery of the cue, the radius twists the forearm, the ulna moves it back and forth.
            I used to box when I was younger and was taught to twist the forearm as you punch so that the knuckles strike the target and not the fingers of your fist. This is the difference between a boxer and someone who just hits you, they will hurt their hand while a boxer will break your jaw. Putting in a subconscious twist of the forearm for extra power while clenching the bicep as you deliver the cue will not improve your snooker which is why it's paramount that you have a loose grip.
            Speak up, you've got to speak up against the madness, you've got speak your mind if you dare
            but don't try to get yourself elected, for if you do you'll have to cut your hair

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kflps View Post
              also why does the elbow of some players move side to side during the stroke,while in other's it only moves straight back and forth?what is the difference in their anatomy?
              I haven't seen this in any decent player link to a video if you can find one.
              Speak up, you've got to speak up against the madness, you've got speak your mind if you dare
              but don't try to get yourself elected, for if you do you'll have to cut your hair

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by vmax View Post

                The radius is purely for twisting the forearm so that the hand can rotate, make a fist and rotate your hand and you'll find that it's the radius bone that's moving, the wrist can only move the hand forwards and backwards and side to side. The ulna only moves the forearm backwards and forwards so it's this joint that matters in the delivery of the cue, the radius twists the forearm, the ulna moves it back and forth.
                I used to box when I was younger and was taught to twist the forearm as you punch so that the knuckles strike the target and not the fingers of your fist. This is the difference between a boxer and someone who just hits you, they will hurt their hand while a boxer will break your jaw. Putting in a subconscious twist of the forearm for extra power while clenching the bicep as you deliver the cue will not improve your snooker which is why it's paramount that you have a loose grip.
                ok i understand now.i don't think i twist my radius during the stroke but i'll give it a look.

                ronnie o'sullivan is someone who moves his elbow side to side when he is cueing,compare him to someone like ding junhui who doesn't move his elbow side to side at all and you will spot the difference

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                • #9
                  is Ronnie side to side? or, as I think, slight up and down, as he drops his elbow on nearly every shot
                  one thing with Ronnie I have noticed is that he has become very loose with his cueing and stance in the last few years - so the movement you see is part of that
                  Up the TSF!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mark187187 View Post
                    It's all muscle memory. The same as someone playing the violin, and bowing straight. Once you've done it enough times, it doesn't feel unnatural. I don't think science or anatomy has a huge bearing, other than some people may be more naturally adept at cueing straight. Pro snooker players have played for 10s of thousands of hours. They didn't all just pick up a cue and have a perfect stroke.
                    but it's the bones that move the cue,not the muscles..

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DeanH View Post
                      is Ronnie side to side? or, as I think, slight up and down, as he drops his elbow on nearly every shot
                      one thing with Ronnie I have noticed is that he has become very loose with his cueing and stance in the last few years - so the movement you see is part of that
                      yes he has a slight side to side movement and up and down as well yet he cues straight..
                      Last edited by kflps; 19th June 2020, 12:39 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kflps View Post

                        but it's the bones that move the cue,not the muscles..
                        It's the muscles that move the bones.
                        This is how you play darts ,MVG two nines in the same match!
                        https://youtu.be/yqTGtwOpHu8

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by itsnoteasy View Post

                          It's the muscles that move the bones.
                          yes but aren't the muscles only able to move the bones in the direction that the bones anatomically move?that's what matters.
                          Last edited by kflps; 19th June 2020, 07:42 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DeanH View Post
                            is Ronnie side to side? or, as I think, slight up and down, as he drops his elbow on nearly every shot
                            one thing with Ronnie I have noticed is that he has become very loose with his cueing and stance in the last few years - so the movement you see is part of that
                            Any movement like that has to come from the shoulder, his feathers do sometimes include some upper arm movement but seeing as his elbow is not directly on the line of aim it looks like it's moving side to side but on the delivery stroke his upper arm only drops after the strike, but not always, which is strange, and I doubt that he knows why.
                            Speak up, you've got to speak up against the madness, you've got speak your mind if you dare
                            but don't try to get yourself elected, for if you do you'll have to cut your hair

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vmax View Post

                              Any movement like that has to come from the shoulder, his feathers do sometimes include some upper arm movement but seeing as his elbow is not directly on the line of aim it looks like it's moving side to side but on the delivery stroke his upper arm only drops after the strike, but not always, which is strange, and I doubt that he knows why.
                              all agreed, do you think he has loosened his body over the years?
                              I have a feeling that it has not been very long ago when major changes started to appear
                              old age?
                              his apparent some-time blase attitude at the table?
                              Up the TSF!

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