Etiquette or is there a rule???

[stemidd]

So here's one for all you snooker experts,after a player has taken his shot after say a safety shot,when does the opponent have the right to be at the table, can the player wait until the white comes to rest before the other player takes to the table. The reason I ask is some players on the pro tour seem to bully the opponent away to leave the table before the white has come to rest. I never see a pro ref taking charge of the rule or is there not one? Anyone know the definitive answer for the pro circuit?

[DeanH]

Rules exist to define the change, and they are in the Rules for Pro and Amateur play.

A player's Turn stops and starts when ALL balls coming to rest AND the other player leaves the table; whichever is last.
The player at the end of their turn must leave the table as soon as possible and without interfering with the other player coming to the table; not doing so can be a "misconduct" and there are warnings that can be applied.
After a warning the player could loss the frame, or if continues, the match.
The "quick to the table players" cant play until all balls come to rest anyway as it is not their turn, so the "slow to leave the table players" do have time to see where the balls come to rest
As you say, sometimes it can look rude, bullish, but they all seem to flow

Did you see the BBC short film about Alex Higgins & Steve Davis, The Rack Pack, it had a great sequence when Alex would be very quick to the table, and bumping Steve

[ste bed]

Am I right in this one player a plays a safety shot player b comes to the table and hits the white or moves a ball with his cue before the balls have come to a complete stop while the other player is still stood at the table. Since player b turn hasn't started yet it can't be a foul.

[stemidd]

That's a really good reply and clarification,very odd you never see a pro ref mention it,I watched a game with Ronnie o & mark Allen who seemed to keep barging Ron out of the way before balls had stopped,looked like he was trying to intimidate Ron but ref never called it out?

[DeanH]

Am I right in this one player a plays a safety shot player b comes to the table and hits the white or moves a ball with his cue before the balls have come to a complete stop while the other player is still stood at the table. Since player b turn hasn't started yet it can't be a foul.

Sorry, no. It is a foul and is covered by Sec 2.5 Striker & Turn.
"...If a non-striker comes to the table, out of turn, he shall be considered as the striker for any foul he may commit before leaving the table. ..."
A foul will be called, and the penalty is the value of the ball on, the offender losses his turn.
In your scenario the ball on would be that ball the opponent had played for the safety.

[DeanH]

That's a really good reply and clarification,very odd you never see a pro ref mention it,I watched a game with Ronnie o & mark Allen who seemed to keep barging Ron out of the way before balls had stopped,looked like he was trying to intimidate Ron but ref never called it out?

You don't see it because to the players they don't seem to be much concerned with these occurrences.
Similarly, you don't often (i.e. never) see a ref comment to a player about "slow play".
Your view may not be what both players feel is actually happening; so they don't complain and/or the ref don't pick up on "ungentlemanly behaviour".

[ste bed]

[QUOTE=DeanH;918450]Sorry, no. It is a foul and is covered by Sec 2.5 Striker & Turn.
"...If a non-striker comes to the table, out of turn, he shall be considered as the striker for any foul he may commit before leaving the table. ..."
A foul will be called, and the penalty is the value of the ball on, the offender losses his turn.
In your scenario the ball on would be that ball the opponent had played for the safety.[/QUOTE

I know that sorry I think I worded it wrong say you and me are playing a game your at the table playing a shot you play the shot your still at the table mid break the balls are still moving I jump up and stop a ball either with my cue or my hand what then I can't possibly be considered the striker. Is it a foul and you carry on or are the balls replaced I would get a warning for misconduct then you carry on surely you can't give a foul when not at the table as the ref can clearly see your not the striker.

[DeanH]

[QUOTE=ste bed;918454]

Sorry, no. It is a foul and is covered by Sec 2.5 Striker & Turn.
"...If a non-striker comes to the table, out of turn, he shall be considered as the striker for any foul he may commit before leaving the table. ..."
A foul will be called, and the penalty is the value of the ball on, the offender losses his turn.
In your scenario the ball on would be that ball the opponent had played for the safety.[/QUOTE

I know that sorry I think I worded it wrong say you and me are playing a game your at the table playing a shot you play the shot your still at the table mid break the balls are still moving I jump up and stop a ball either with my cue or my hand what then I can't possibly be considered the striker.

sorry, again,
but the rule covers your two scenarios, coming to the table "out of turn" is what you describe and that player WILL be considered the striker for any foul they commit. Being considered the striker means that they will be penalised for any foul they commit, not the "real" striker at the time.

Also, in your second scenario would be considered ungentlemanly conduct and a warning should be issued.

[ste bed]

[QUOTE=DeanH;918459]

sorry, again,
but the rule covers your two scenarios, coming to the table "out of turn" is what you describe and that player WILL be considered the striker for any foul they commit. Being considered the striker means that they will be penalised for any foul they commit, not the "real" striker at the time.

Also, in your second scenario would be considered ungentlemanly conduct and a warning should be issued.

Is that your interpretation of it or fact not trying to be a arse as I don't know myself but I interpret it as the following I play a shot leave the table say turn my back then walk back to the table thinking you have already played play a shot and ref calls a foul for playing out of turn. What I am saying is your at the table mid break I come to the table move a ball or stop a ball while your clearly at the table still in play. Now if your right I become the striker so I would get a foul against me for say stopping a red so foul 4 now seeing as I become the striker does 1,your break stop the foul gets called end of break then it's your go again or 2, would it be foul 4 the balls replaced and you continue the break or 3, the balls get replaced no foul is called I would get a warning for misconduct and you carry on your break.

It's not the rule I can't get my head round it's what happens after never seen or come across this situation in a game.

[jonny66]

So, say if a player is on for the highest break of the tournament, in the final frame of the final, but his opponent holds the current high break. Halfway through the break his opponent runs up to the table and stops the white with his hand, does the break then return to zero?

[DeanH]

Is that your interpretation of it or fact

The word "considered" is in the rules, to me that is clearly meaning that the non-striker will be penalised for any foul they commit at the table.

I interpret it as the following I play a shot leave the table say turn my back then walk back to the table thinking you have already played play a shot and ref calls a foul for playing out of turn.

If you play your strike, nothing pots, no foul etc.
You leave the table.
The opponent does not go to the table.
You return, mistakenly thinking the opponent had played.
You play another strike.
Foul, value of ball on awarded against you. The non-offender's turn starts, they have the usual options after a foul; they can play the balls as they lie, or ask the offender to play from where they lie.

What I am saying is your at the table mid break I come to the table move a ball or stop a ball while your clearly at the table still in play.
Now if your right I become the striker so I would get a foul against me for say stopping a red so foul 4 now seeing as I become the striker does 1,your break stop the foul gets called end of break then it's your go again or 2, would it be foul 4 the balls replaced and you continue the break or 3, the balls get replaced no foul is called I would get a warning for misconduct and you carry on your break.

From what I can gather from my reading, if non-offender is mid-break, and the offender commits a foul on the table, out of turn, Foul is declared against the offender, player out of turn.
Non-offender points up to that time are condoned and added to their score, the penalty points are awarded to their score, it is their turn again/still.
At this point it is unclear from what I have read so far, as you say, does the Turn continue or does a new Turn start again. If on a colour when the out of turn foul occurs, is the non-offender still on a/that colour after the time of the foul?
Also does the non-offender have the usual options after a foul, if so that means the Turn starts again as usual (red if on table, or colour in sequence) and of course the "break" stopped at the time of the foul?
Even SRF explanation notes say that this scenario is not clearly covered.

My opinion of what could be the best option, to ensure no one gets an unfair advantage; maybe the Turn of the non-offender continues, with the referee replacing any balls moved back to where they were before the foul; after the foul is awarded, the non-offender's turn , and hence break, continues as before the out of turn player's foul.
Confusing for the break - does the penalty points contribute to the break or just the score?

Look forward to other's views on this scenario

[Ramon]

So, say if a player is on for the highest break of the tournament, in the final frame of the final, but his opponent holds the current high break. Halfway through the break his opponent runs up to the table and stops the white with his hand, does the break then return to zero?

I may be wrong about this , jonny.

but in your scenario, the opponent (the one who stops the CB with his hand),will loses the frame. The frame will be decided in his opponent's favor.

Once you touch the ball and you do it deliberately to disrupt the frame, you gonna loss the frame.

I think this happened once with chris small , during one of his matches . Can'nt remember which one was it .

[jonny66]

I may be wrong about this , jonny.

but in your scenario, the opponent (the one who stops the CB with his hand),will loses the frame. The frame will be decided in his opponent's favor.

Once you touch the ball and you do it deliberately to disrupt the frame, you gonna loss the frame.

I think this happened once with chris small , durin his match . Can'nt remember which one was it .

Yeah I get that, the frame could've been lost already, the point is that the player at the table has a possible high break and prize to go with it. What happens to the break is my question.

[Cue crafty]

Salute to Dean! You really are wearing the mortar board and collecting the honours degree with your knowledge! Class act! 😉

[Ramon]

Yeah I get that, the frame could've been lost already, the point is that the player at the table has a possible high break and prize to go with it. What happens to the break is my question.

Even if the frame could'nt have been lost already , you gonna loss the frame ( once you touch the ball and you do it deliberately ). Unless i'm wrong of crs.

As for your point with regards to high break , VERY interesting point indeed . Would be nice if sumone can give sum info about this matter.

So , lets say a player is on 140 break and he only needs black to complit 147 , and sumhow I jump thr and stop the CB .
hahaha, Interesting point indeed my friend.