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1954, 1973, 1975, 2018

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  • #16
    Originally posted by DeanH View Post
    I have found a couple of articles from 1953 that state Jim Van Rensburg was 21yrs old and he only started playing snooker from 18.
    That was Jimmy. What about Fred?

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    • #17
      1954, 1973, 1975, 2018

      still looking for Fred
      Up the TSF!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Dark View Post
        Fred Davis played Ronnie O'Sullivan in 1992 when he was 79.
        What was the context and the final score?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by cesard View Post
          Originally posted by Dark View Post
          Fred Davis played Ronnie O'Sullivan in 1992 when he was 79.
          What was the context and the final score?
          1992 Grand Prix Round 6 5-1 to ROS
          Up the TSF!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Cyril View Post
            Is the correct answer! I didn’t include the “challenge matches” test look place in the 60’s, when both John Pulman and Fred Davis were over 40. Don’t know old Fred van Rensburg was?
            Yay! This is also a rare final I think because it is not common for two players with multiple world titles to meet in the finals. It happened last year and I think the last time was 1982.

            I don't think there is so much of a lost generation of sorts, but rather it seems to just take more time to put together a complete game. The players in the 90's and early 00's pushed the standard of break building so high so fast, that the previous generations tactical game was just run over. Hence the fairly young top 16 line up. But in the late 00's and early 10's I feel like there was a sort of quiet revolution in snooker where you had incredible break builders add a world class safety game to their repetoire. Players also seem a bit more measured about breaking opening up the pack these days. They seem more likely to pick the right opportunity while picking off the stray reds, kind of a mixture between the classic style and modern approach.

            So the younger generation are great potters and break builders but until they add the tactical game and mature a bit, the older players are going to dominate. Kyren Wilson on the other hand always seemed like a match player first and break builder second. Within just the last 6 months his break building has improved a lot so we are seeing him more at the business end of tournaments. Until a group of players come along that push the standard of the game even higher (if possible) the prime for a snooker player will most likely be in their 30's. It's not like Higgins et. al. are declining with age and no one is taking their place, if you review their stats on Cuetracker you can see that they are playing as well as ever and in some cases even better.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DeanH View Post
              1992 Grand Prix Round 6 5-1 to ROS
              Quite something for Fred to win a frame off Ronnie at 79 years old.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Csmith View Post
                Yay! This is also a rare final I think because it is not common for two players with multiple world titles to meet in the finals. It happened last year and I think the last time was 1982.

                I don't think there is so much of a lost generation of sorts, but rather it seems to just take more time to put together a complete game. The players in the 90's and early 00's pushed the standard of break building so high so fast, that the previous generations tactical game was just run over. Hence the fairly young top 16 line up. But in the late 00's and early 10's I feel like there was a sort of quiet revolution in snooker where you had incredible break builders add a world class safety game to their repetoire. Players also seem a bit more measured about breaking opening up the pack these days. They seem more likely to pick the right opportunity while picking off the stray reds, kind of a mixture between the classic style and modern approach.

                So the younger generation are great potters and break builders but until they add the tactical game and mature a bit, the older players are going to dominate. Kyren Wilson on the other hand always seemed like a match player first and break builder second. Within just the last 6 months his break building has improved a lot so we are seeing him more at the business end of tournaments. Until a group of players come along that push the standard of the game even higher (if possible) the prime for a snooker player will most likely be in their 30's. It's not like Higgins et. al. are declining with age and no one is taking their place, if you review their stats on Cuetracker you can see that they are playing as well as ever and in some cases even better.
                Very good point about the younger players not having the tactical game to match the class of ‘92.

                On the multiple world champions contesting a World final - it is very rare indeed. Last year it happened of course - Selby (2) v Higgy (4). 1982 doesn’t count as Alex had only won it once before. Excluding the challenge matches between Pulman and Fred, you’d have to go back to the finals of 1951,52,53 and 54 when Fred and Donaldson had each won 2 or more.
                Last edited by Cyril; 6th May 2018, 10:34 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Csmith View Post
                  Kyren Wilson on the other hand always seemed like a match player first and break builder second. Within just the last 6 months his break building has improved a lot so ..
                  But to be fair, at the most prestigious English amateur event about five years ago he had a 147.
                  Duplicate of banned account deleted

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cyril View Post
                    Very good point about the younger players not having the tactical game to match the class of ‘92.

                    On the multiple world champions contesting a World final - it is very rare indeed. Last year it happened of course - Selby (2) v Higgy (4). 1982 doesn’t count as Alex had only won it once before. Excluding the challenge matches between Pulman and Fred, you’d have to go back to the finals of 1951,52,53 and 54 when Fred and Donaldson had each won 2 or more.
                    You are correct about 82 and that makes it al the more rare!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Londonlad147 View Post
                      But to be fair, at the most prestigious English amateur event about five years ago he had a 147.
                      For sure, I don't mean to suggest that he wasn't a good break builder, just in comparison to the elite. The metric I like from cuetracker is the frequency of 50+ breaks. The top break builders manage 50+ breaks every 2.5 - 2.8 frames. Most professionals are between 3-3.7 frames. Kyren until recently was performing at 3.3ish frames but has improved to 2.8. This brings his break building in line with some of the very best.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Csmith View Post
                        For sure, I don't mean to suggest that he wasn't a good break builder, just in comparison to the elite. The metric I like from cuetracker is the frequency of 50+ breaks. The top break builders manage 50+ breaks every 2.5 - 2.8 frames. Most professionals are between 3-3.7 frames. Kyren until recently was performing at 3.3ish frames but has improved to 2.8. This brings his break building in line with some of the very best.
                        Interesting statistics. I don't really like the measurement of 50 points or more, as a 50 point break quite often does not win a frame but keeping it as a measure it is interesting to see the list of highest percentage 50 break per frame from the season. O'Sullivan is of course first by a long way but Robertson second just ahead of Trump with Higgins 4th and Lisowski 5th. Wilson only 17th but with the most frames counted, Williams 10th with the second most amount of frames.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cyril View Post
                          Don’t know?
                          1954 & 2018 are the only "40 or over" finals to be contested by previous World championship winners.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cyril View Post
                            Very good point about the younger players not having the tactical game to match the class of ‘92.
                            And most show little interest in it, imho.

                            Kyren is coached by Barry Stark*, and it shows as he has some "old school" in his game: the rest seem happy to make a comfortable living by just potting and breakbuilding. As posted before there used to be money matches in the distant past and a far better Youth\Amateur Scene where talented players could learn to play Matches and battle....

                            *similarly ROS became a lot better after the Reardon Year(s).

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dark View Post
                              Interesting statistics. I don't really like the measurement of 50 points or more, as a 50 point break quite often does not win a frame but keeping it as a measure it is interesting to see the list of highest percentage 50 break per frame from the season. O'Sullivan is of course first by a long way but Robertson second just ahead of Trump with Higgins 4th and Lisowski 5th. Wilson only 17th but with the most frames counted, Williams 10th with the second most amount of frames.
                              For sure the 50+ break metric can be a bit misleading if you try to use it determine the best players. You mention Lisowski, he is a great example of that because he is so high on the list but not nearly as successful as those in his company. If you look a bit closer at the breakdown you will see the point you mention, he makes (or made, I think he is doing better now) a lot of 50 and 60 breaks, but doesn't convert them to frame winners often enough. But it is a nice stat to compare break building. Ronnie's numbers are crazy and interestingly, Trump is scoring better than Hendry did in his prime. Though, comparing across eras is tricky because of the change in table conditions and playing styles.

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