Ball on Edge of Pocket - Timing

[DeanH]

I have done a search and I don't think this has been asked before.
In the rule it states "If a ball balances momentarily on the edge of a pocket and then falls in, it shall count as in the pocket and not be replaced."
so this means that any longer than "momentarily" the ball wont score and will be replaced, but how long is "momentarily"?
Recently, a pool team mate said it was 6 seconds, i.e. up to six seconds - scoring pot, over 6 seconds will be replaced, this is in the context of Black Ball and World Rule pool. I asked him were he had seen this and said only what he had been told by a referee at a tournament a while back, I have not been able to find anything in writing to back this or to state what time is involved.
The today, watching the snooker (Gould vs Fu) on Eurosport, after Gould's red sat on the edge of the middle pocket, the commentators discussed this and Joe Johnson(?) said emphatically 3-seconds.
Anyone have any written guidelines (SRA do not mention any timing) or any practical "rule-of-thumb" that came be applied and wont cause arguments in a pool league match

[The Statman]

There is no defined time limit. It is up to the referee to make a judgment call.

I have played (and refereed) on some tables where a sort of sixth sense tells you that the ball is indeed going to drop after a few seconds. It is just one of those 'feel' moments when something tells you it will happen (a bit like the 'feel' of playing a swerve shot to go straight for the desired distance before the side takes effect - you can play it but you can't describe quite how you know how to play it right.

A practical rule of thumb might well be 3 seconds - indeed, I've heard it mentioned recently - but you do have to take each one on its merits. If the player got up and banged his cue in frustration at the miss, and then it dropped in, you might be inclined to think that had caused it even if it was only a second. Maybe the ball was actually perfectly fine and not in danger of dropping but for the vibration. However, if you had a situation where a ball was discernibly spinning on its axis, more than 3 seconds could pass before it dropped in and one might still allow it to count as in the pocket.

[DeanH]

cheers
I would say any count would start after the ball is stationary (no roll or spin).
So referee judgement call.

[SnkrRef]

Funnily enough this has today been asked on the Facebook 'Rules & Referees' Group: ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/snooker.referees/ )

Steve Clark

OK. I'm watching the Fu/Gould match on Eurosport. Think it was Gould attempting a red and left it hanging on the edge of the pocket. Jo Johnson (commentating) stated that if the red dropped after 3 seconds, it would be replaced. I am not aware of this in the rules. As far as I was aware, once the player had finished his turn and left the table, only then would it be replaced if it then dropped.

Mark Seaman
I am of the same opinion as you, although if the ball appears to have come to a halt and as the player takes a couple of steps away from the table it drops I would call it a legal pot, I think it's a judgement call as to whether you replace the ball or the player continues

Steve Clark
Agreed. Not happened to me as a referee................yet!!!

Clive Brown
There is nothing stated in the rules, although three seconds is a fairly good guideline, although each case must be assessed on its own merits.

Clive Brown

Two extracts from the rules might help:

5. Striker and Turn
The person about to play or in play is the striker and remains so until the final stroke, or foul, of his turn is complete and the referee is satisfied that he has finally left the table.

6. Stroke
(c) A stroke is not completed until:
(i) all balls have come to rest;
(ii) the striker has stood up, in readiness for a succeeding stroke, or leaving the table;
(iii) any equipment being used by the striker has been removed from a hazardous position; and
(iv) the referee has called any score relevant to the stroke.

The player remains the striker until the turn has ended which can't happen until the last stroke is complete... and that can't happen until all balls have come to rest. So it's a judgemental call by the referee as to whether the ball dropped as part of the last stroke.

[DeanH]

cool, in illustrious company
cheers

[Bigmeek]

Can't really use a time limit unless you have a stop- watch! What ref would be able to accurately count 3 seconds? Might have been 2.9 or maybe 3.1 seconds. It's up to the ref to decide whether the striker's shot has finished and he has left the table. If the ball drops after that then it is replaced.

[DeanH]

Ball on Edge of Pocket - Timing

a friend just now said if you say "momentarily" 3 times that is near as damn it 3 seconds

sad

[ShellH]

a friend just now said if you say "momentarily" 3 times that is near as damn it 3 seconds

sad

Don't you remember the scene in friends when Ross was in the tanning booth.
1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippi

[Stupree]

Ball on Edge of Pocket - Timing

You've gone and spoiled your great start with a 'Friends' reference! Going to have to work hard to pull it back from here in my eyes

[ShellH]

Ball on Edge of Pocket - Timing

oh no, I was doing so well.

[DandyA]

this is in the context of Black Ball and World Rule pool.

you're on dangerous ground trying to apply snooker rules to pool! or to put it another way, you can't apply snooker rules to pool because they have their own sets of rules ...

I don't know Blackball or World Rules but this issue has come up in the competitive old EPA rules I play and the consensus was there's nothing in those rules about replacing the ball so it simply counts for or against the player who's addressing the table ...

But there's no quicker way to start an argument than trying to apply snooker rules to a pool game LOL

[DeanH]

you're on dangerous ground trying to apply snooker rules to pool! or to put it another way, you can't apply snooker rules to pool because they have their own sets of rules ...

I don't know Blackball or World Rules but this issue has come up in the competitive old EPA rules I play and the consensus was there's nothing in those rules about replacing the ball so it simply counts for or against the player who's addressing the table ...

But there's no quicker way to start an argument than trying to apply snooker rules to a pool game LOL

good gad no, I was not trying to apply either set of rules to the other game
I was just mentioning that someone had said that there was a set time to the edge in pool, and then JJ mentioned one in snooker but no-one has a time (for either sport) written down anywhere.
I very much doubt that here is a time period actually stipulated anywhere, so as stated in previous posts, Referee judgement call.