Deliberate foul

[travisbickle]

You can only call F&M where a stroke has been played and the cue ball fails to make first contact with a ball on. If balls are moved by hand then you cannot call F&M.

I would’ve thought moving the CB or any ball with your hands would be called a foul & miss.
What happens then, is it loss of frame?
If it isn’t then if you find yourself in a really difficult snooker next time you could just move the CB or any other OB’s for that matter with your hand give away just 4 penalty points and carry on. That can’t be right, can it?

[DeanH]

Deliberate foul

thanks LL
an edit of one of my earlier posts did not seem to appear, I retracted the F&M statement as you say above

[Londonlad147]

hm, thinking you may be right, as discussed earlier, I am sure I added a bit more, but cant see my edit.
Maybe just up to the non-offending player to get the snooker required.
Now the referee has the option to award the frame immediately after a gross infringement of the rule, but does this "deliberate foul" constitute a gross infringement?
Should a new clause be added to the rules defining a "deliberate foul" and the penalty?
Easier than leaving it to the individual referee.

As I said in my recent post, I think you have to be very careful before giving a warning: the referee would need to be absolutely certain that the pocketing of the red was intentional. Even if he was convinced it was an intentional act, then I don't see it as something which would lead to an immediate loss of frame. Surely it would have to be considered under s4.1(a)(ii):

SECTION 4 THE PLAYERS
1. Conduct
(a) In the event of:
(i) a Player taking an abnormal amount of time over a stroke or the selection of a stroke; or
(ii) any conduct by a Player which in the opinion of the referee is wilfully or persistently unfair; or
(iii) any other conduct by a Player which otherwise amounts to
ungentlemanly conduct; or
(iv) refusing to continue a frame;
the referee shall either:
(v) warn the Player that in the event of any such further conduct the
frame will be awarded to his opponent; or
(vi) award the frame to his opponent; or
(vii) in the event that the conduct is sufficiently serious, award the game to his opponent.
(b) If a referee has warned the Player under (v) above, in the event of any further conduct as referred to above, the referee must either:
(i) award the frame to his opponent; or
(ii) in the event that the further conduct is sufficiently serious, award the game to his opponent.
(c) If a referee has awarded a frame to a Player‟s opponent pursuant to the above provisions, in the event of any further conduct as referred to above by the Player concerned, the referee must award the game to the Player‟s opponent.
(d) Any decision by a referee to award a frame and/or the game to a Player‟s opponent shall be final and shall not be subject to any appeal.

If there was some doubt, then I might just have a quiet word with the player to the effect that 'I had suspicions of unfair play, don't do it again!'

[Londonlad147]

Same rule applies, warning not to continue that behavior else the frame and if continues the match to the opponent.
As to whether the balls are replaced, I think this would be a F&M and the non-offending player would have the usual three choices.

You can only call F&M where a stroke has been played and the cue ball fails to make first contact with a ball on. If balls are moved by hand then you cannot call F&M.

[Londonlad147]

In your scenario, it will be a Foul & Miss, if the non-offending player requests the replacement of the balls and the offending player to play again; the ref should also warn the offending player that another occurrence of such behaviour and the frame will be awarded to the non-offending player. Play on...

It cannot be a foul and a miss because the nominated ball (yellow) has been struck first. Also, the difference in scores after the foul means penalty points are required by the non-offender, so that would preclude it anyway.

The scenario presented by the OP is a difficult one, and it really depends on how clear cut the actual events are. Is there any doubt that the player was aiming to pocket the red? If there is then you've got to give the striker the benefit of the doubt.

Also with there still being other reds on the table, the needing fo penalty points isn't so crucial so it could be argued that there would be no real reason for the striker to have deliberately tried to pocket the red. If it had happened on the last red, then maybe one needs to take a different view.

[Londonlad147]

Hope LondonLad pops on as he once wrote a good piece about "intent" and the judgement of.

Did I? Must be lost amogst all the other gems I've written ;-)

[JimMalone]

Now the referee has the option to award the frame immediately after a gross infringement of the rule, but does this "deliberate foul" constitute a gross infringement?
Should a new clause be added to the rules defining a "deliberate foul" and the penalty?
Easier than leaving it to the individual referee.

Not in the case of the original question. But I think if a player moves balls by hand deliberately as asked later in the thread he surely should lose the frame?

[JimMalone]

I really think this is a highly interesting debate. Would be fine if Snooker had rules for cases such as this.

[DeanH]

Can’t be a foul and a miss because he played the ball on (yellow)surely?
Unsporting maybe, but only a 4 point penalty in my book.

hm, thinking you may be right, as discussed earlier, I am sure I added a bit more, but cant see my edit.
Maybe just up to the non-offending player to get the snooker required.
Now the referee has the option to award the frame immediately after a gross infringement of the rule, but does this "deliberate foul" constitute a gross infringement?
Should a new clause be added to the rules defining a "deliberate foul" and the penalty?
Easier than leaving it to the individual referee.

[DeanH]

https://youtu.be/y1sDiLapr0g

Dott didn’t do it on purpose here, but what happens if some player does it every once in a while?

Dott should have left the cue ball to roll into the pocket; then there would have been no further issues
If a player does this every once in a while (in the same match) I would expect the referee to quietly talk to the player saying, "please let the ball drop into the pocket".
This situation has been discussed many, many times

[travisbickle]

There is no such ruling in Snooker as "Deliberate foul" but it is covered by the Conduct rule as per "Sec4.1(a)(ii) any conduct by a Player which in the opinion of the referee is wilfully or persistently unfair;...".
In your scenario, it will be a Foul & Miss, if the non-offending player requests the replacement of the balls and the offending player to play again; the ref should also warn the offending player that another occurrence of such behaviour and the frame will be awarded to the non-offending player. Play on...

Can’t be a foul and a miss because he played the ball on (yellow)surely?
Unsporting maybe, but only a 4 point penalty in my book.

[Billy]

https://youtu.be/y1sDiLapr0g

Dott didn’t do it on purpose here, but what happens if some player does it every once in a while?

Yes, someone has already said this, but Graeme should have either potted the white directly into the pocket at this point, or lifted it off the table with his hand to give ball-in-hand back to Mark.

[Selbyjustbegun]

Same rule applies, warning not to continue that behavior else the frame and if continues the match to the opponent.
As to whether the balls are replaced, I think this would be a F&M and the non-offending player would have the usual three choices.

https://youtu.be/y1sDiLapr0g

Dott didn’t do it on purpose here, but what happens if some player does it every once in a while?

[DeanH]

What happens if I deliberately move the balls on the table by my hand?

Same rule applies, warning not to continue that behavior else the frame and if continues the match to the opponent.
As to whether the balls are replaced, I think this would be a F&M and the non-offending player would have the usual three choices.

[Selbyjustbegun]

There is no such ruling in Snooker as "Deliberate foul" but it is covered by the Conduct rule as per "Sec4.1(a)(ii) any conduct by a Player which in the opinion of the referee is wilfully or persistently unfair;...".
In your scenario, it will be a Foul & Miss, if the non-offending player requests the replacement of the balls and the offending player to play again; the ref should also warn the offending player that another occurrence of such behaviour and the frame will be awarded to the non-offending player. Play on...

What happens if I deliberately move the balls on the table by my hand?