Deliberate fouls and serious fouls...

[timcunnell]

Hi guys. I play in a local 8-ball league. We play World Rules and I have a question about deliberate fouls.
Playing in a game last night I found myself in a situation where I had 1 ball left - which was nicely covering a pocket. My opponent had 6 balls. They snookered me, and there was little point trying to escape the snooker, so I thought I'd play a deliberate foul, but try and tie up the white so my opponent would at least use their first visit up straight away. I was tight on a cushion, about an inch behind a ball. I thought I'd just touch up to this ball, but for some reason my cueing arm was really unsteady, so I didn't fancy myself to play the delicate shot without making a right horlicks of it! So in the end I opted for rolling the white down the table into a cushion. I ended up winning the frame so happy days!
Anyway, after the frame my mate asked me why I didn't touch up behind this ball when I had the chance, and I said that I didn't feel I had the delicate touch required at the time. He asked me why I didn't simply tap the top of the white with my cue. I guess the reason that didn't occur to me is because I think that would be very unsporting. But is that still only a standard foul? In my view, although playing a deliberate foul shot, certain fouls still require a delicate touch. My opponent played a good shot in leaving my right behind a ball. It would've required a deft touch to play the white only an inch or so. But tapping the white on the top requires no skill, and is a cop-out!
But applying the letter of the law, is that anything more serious than foul and 2 shots??

[DeanH]

To me the tap on the top of the cue ball is the same as playing the cue ball down the table without contacting any ball. Standard Foul K.16 Failing to perform a "Legal Shot".
As World Rules do not define a Deliberate Foul, there is not a defined penalty for such.
Yes, not nice but within the rules and only award two visits to the opponent.
I think in the years I have played WR I have done such a tap shot is less than 5. I try my not to play it at all but...

[justf]

If you had of made contact with the tip, normal deliberate foul. If however, the ferrule had of made contact, would have been a serious foul with all that entails.
Glad you won tho!!

[timcunnell]

If you had of made contact with the tip, normal deliberate foul. If however, the ferrule had of made contact, would have been a serious foul with all that entails.
Glad you won tho!!

Thanks for this. I must admit I had thought that a serious foul meant loss of frame - but having re-read the rules it seems not to be the case.

Am I right in saying you should effectively get a "yellow card" for playing a serious foul. And loss of frame is the penalty for second offence? (The exception being a serious foul which prevents your opponent from potting the 8-ball?).

And the balls are replaced (as well as 2-shots awarded) when a serious foul is called.

[andi mack]

Hi,

In the league i play in we use the 2005 World Pool Association Rules and by rule 6c the opponent would have the option to have the cue ball returned to baulk after you have fouled.

Rule 6c - Following any foul, the cue ball may be returned to baulk or played from where it lies on the bed of the table and proceed as rule 6(a) and 6(b). - The player has the option of playing the cue ball from baulk. Moving the cue ball in this manner does not count as a shot or visit.

Also by rule 7c you'd lose the frame by a deliberate foul for either playing the cue ball down the cushion or just tapping the top of the white.

rule 7c - DELIBERATE FOUL

A player who clearly and intentionally plays a ball not ‘on’ will have committed a deliberate foul resulting in loss of frame.

A player who clearly and intentionally fails to make an attempt to play a ball(s) of his/her own group will lose the frame.

"Failing to make a bona fide attempt to play a legal shot will be deemed to be a deliberate foul and will result in loss of frame."

Not saying you use the exact same rules as we do (our league is kind of odd), but it might be worth double checking your leagues rules.

[timcunnell]

Thanks Andi. Yes, these sound like the rules we used to play until the newer world rules came into play.
The main difference with the newer rules is the you can't move the cue ball to baulk (ball in hand) after a foul, unless you are also snookered - and obviously you can play deliberate fouls.
The deliberate foul issue throws up some interesting situations because it does mean that in certain situations you can play a foul shot in such a way as to force your opponent to use their first visit up on their first shot.
Being a snooker player I find potting and positional play is quite good in 8-ball. But I lose lots of frames to regular pool players with better tactics than me!

[andi mack]

Thanks Andi. Yes, these sound like the rules we used to play until the newer world rules came into play.
The main difference with the newer rules is the you can't move the cue ball to baulk (ball in hand) after a foul, unless you are also snookered - and obviously you can play deliberate fouls.
The deliberate foul issue throws up some interesting situations because it does mean that in certain situations you can play a foul shot in such a way as to force your opponent to use their first visit up on their first shot.
Being a snooker player I find potting and positional play is quite good in 8-ball. But I lose lots of frames to regular pool players with better tactics than me!

Cheers Tim,

I'll bring it up at our next AGM and see if we can get the rules changed to the rules you are using as they sound far more interesting than ours. But i doubt' i'll happen as the rules were changed to these as the team that run the league don't like "tactical" gameplay.

Sounds like you need to embrace the evil and just get a bit more table time with better players to pick up on their tactics. When i got back into the league (i had a 5 year break), i started reffing more so i could watch more games and spot the tactics the other players are using. I found it helped me get back to where i used to be quicker.

Good luck.

[timcunnell]

Thanks Andi. Yeah I definitely think these newer rules require a different approach. I can't think how long they've been in use now (probably since early 2000's) and they're now the standard rules for County and national tournaments.
These also include the rule that you have to hit a cushion on every shot (except potts!). Do you play that in your league? The rules were supposedly intended to make the game more attacking - and the cushion rule is a key part of that. All too often, players would just roll up behind one of their balls if they had nothing pottable. I think pub landlords got the hump because games were going on into the small hours!!

[andi mack]

Thanks Andi. Yeah I definitely think these newer rules require a different approach. I can't think how long they've been in use now (probably since early 2000's) and they're now the standard rules for County and national tournaments.
These also include the rule that you have to hit a cushion on every shot (except potts!). Do you play that in your league? The rules were supposedly intended to make the game more attacking - and the cushion rule is a key part of that. All too often, players would just roll up behind one of their balls if they had nothing pottable. I think pub landlords got the hump because games were going on into the small hours!!

Yeah we have the same have to hit a cushion rule. That took a bit of getting used to, especially as ours is probably the slowest table in the league.

The official line on the rule change was - it was players complaining they were too tired for work the next day. Although under these new rules the games seem to last twice as long and often the match doesn't finish till well after 11pm. Under the old rules we'd be back at our pub by 10pm at the latest.

Everyone seems to be playing more defensive / timid than attacking. But hey ho, it's a good change and i'd personally prefer to be playing the same rules as county / national (not that i am of that standard).

[Slimbob]

World Rules come under review every five years and have recently changed.
There are no longer 'Serious' fouls. They have all been reclassified as either 'Standard' or 'Loss of frame' fouls.
The example quoted where a player deliberately plays the cue ball with the ferule or shaft would now be a LoF.
Look on the EPA website for confirmation of this.

The OP said he felt he didn't have the 'touch' to play his ball an inch into his opponents ball and commit a df. If you're going to foul anyway you don't need 'touch', you could just shuffle it along with a couple of hits or pushes.

[Londonlad147]

World Rules come under review every five years and have recently changed.
There are no longer 'Serious' fouls. They have all been reclassified as either 'Standard' or 'Loss of frame' fouls.
The example quoted where a player deliberately plays the cue ball with the ferule or shaft would now be a LoF.
Look on the EPA website for confirmation of this.

The OP said he felt he didn't have the 'touch' to play his ball an inch into his opponents ball and commit a df. If you're going to foul anyway you don't need 'touch', you could just shuffle it along with a couple of hits or pushes.

Yes, there's no such thing as a serious foul any more. If the cue ball is deliberately touched with other than the tip of the cue then it is LoF. Of course you can still commit the DF by just playing the cue tip down onto the cue ball rather than using the ferule or shaft.

[GeordieDS]

I play snooker but the other week i had a game of pool against a pool player and i always just play whatever rules they like but he said deliberate foul which i had not heard of but just seems ridiculous to me?
Sorry if this is off topic but it was a real head scratcher for me and i just thought he must be **** if he needs to play that 'rule'
Is this normal for pool these days?

[DeanH]

had been waiting for new rules for World Rules Eight Ball
http://www.wepf.org/menu.php?option=6

[rdsalt]

World rules started in the late 90's so they're nearly 20 years old so hardly the new rules! The deliberate foul caused a split in our league and we have recently changed to Blackball which has got the leagues back together again which is good for a small town like ours. It was quite a change after playing world rules for so long but Blackball is a more attacking game and certainly easier to play if your new to the game. I still play a bit of world rules and enjoy it but they do sometimes drag the game out a bit and certainly give an advantage to the tactical player. In Blackball blocking pockets does not give you near so much advantage as World rules as you can play a combination shot or if your opponent fouls you can pot his ball with your free shot. Anyway the shot you describe is perfectly OK in world rules and have seen it played many times to make sure your opponent has to waste the first visit of his 2 shots, obviously it would not be allowed in Blackball.

[timcunnell]

I play snooker but the other week i had a game of pool against a pool player and i always just play whatever rules they like but he said deliberate foul which i had not heard of but just seems ridiculous to me?
Sorry if this is off topic but it was a real head scratcher for me and i just thought he must be **** if he needs to play that 'rule'
Is this normal for pool these days?

Yep - deliberate fouls are fine in 8-ball (if you're playing the World Rules). Like you, I am a snooker player really - and it seems there is more sportsmanship in the snooker rules if you ask me! I do find deliberate fouls hard to swallow. But at the same time, if you're playing a good pool player (and a good tactician at that) you sometimes have to play them. And in fairness, once you get used to it, the deliberate foul thing is quite interesting and actually requires some skill and tactical ability to pull off properly.

It does seem to me that the rules of 8-ball have been written with consideration to the fact that most games are played in a pub and being refereed by normal people (rather than qualified refs). I don't know if this is definitely the case - but wouldn't surprise me. For example, there's no push shot rule in 8-ball, which is ridiculous really. But sometimes calling a push shot could be contentious.

Also - because you don't have a miss rule with balls being replaced like in snooker, there would be lots of occasions where calling a deliberate foul (loss of frame in the other rules) could be highly controversial. And good players could play a deliberate foul, but make it look accidental, and gain a tactical advantage. So I can see that allowing fouls in the game does make it easier for referees. And in addition to the 2-shots, you still get ball-in-hand and/or free ball if you're snookered after a foul. So its quite fair really.

I just think people still need to play a proper shot (ie not tap the ball with ferrule for example) and it seems that is now loss if frame, and rightly so really!