Cue Throw??

[davipp]

Over the many years of playing snooker I have heard the comment "that this cue Throws" or ''This cue does not throw".

It has been explained to me that a cue that does not throw is one, that when side is used, for instance on a straight shot that the cue ball does not swing out to the left or right, depending on which side is used, and therfore you would aim the cue exactly the same at the object ball as if you were cueing the centre of the cue ball. Is this true?

Now if you need to use side and swing the cue ball around another ball for example getting out of snooker does this mean I have to raise the butt of the cue more than usual?

How can I test a cue for throw?

I remember many years ago a player at my club was re-tipping his cue and I noticed this black spot in the centre of the timber where the tip goes and I asked what it was and why it was there.
He explained that it was ebony and it stopped the cue from throwing. He demonstrated the theory and I tried it with my cheap cue which produce exactly the same result as his.
Are there anymore theories on this phenomenon.

[hotpot]

Different cues and tips will exagerate side more than others . Having owned a few hundred cues and tried most tips there is some truth that some cues will throw more than others . A good way of testing is by putting a red somewhere between pink and black and around six inches off the cush with the black on its spot .

Set up a pot where you need to use side for example a cut back into the right corner pocket using right hand side to hold for the black .
What you will find is the white will push to the left and if you dont compensate you will hit the red thinner . How much a cue will throw is a matter foe experimenting with it to find out .

[vmax4steve]

To test just how much your own cue deflects the cue ball when playing with side simply place the cue ball against the top cushion and play a shot with side along the cushion to pot the cue ball into the adjacent pocket.
The cue ball will leave the cushion when using left hand side from the green side of the table and vice versa, and will drive into the cushion when using right hand side from the green side of the table and vice versa.

[nrage]

This video is the best I've found at explaining squirt (deflection) and swerve which are the 2 main effects of playing with side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms&feature=plcp

squirt/deflection is mostly due to the end mass of the cue, basically it is down to how much force it takes to move the tip of the cue to the side, an "equal and opposite" force is applied to the white ball at the point of contact causing deflection.

deflection is fairly constant, cue elevation, power and amount of side etc all make only small adjustments to the amount of deflection.

swerve is caused by the rotation of the ball and the nap of the cloth.

swerve is affected greatly by power (more power delays the swerve), cue elevation (more elevation increases the swerve), a thicker nap will make the swerve take earlier and have more effect.

The test vmax describes is a good one, you could also use the test in the video I linked playing it down the center of the table from the brown spot and seeing how far to the left/right of center it strikes the top (black) rail.

[old school]

Type " deflection " in the advanced search box . There are a lot of threads on deflection/throw and its causes i.e. end mass , ferrule length , relative stiffness of shaft ( no comments please , Jim ), etc. Mr Wooldridge s Blackspin ferrules show a happy tendency for less deflection as do short or lightweight ferrules.

[Chris Bedford]

Cue Throw??

Wow that's blown my mind for a Thursday morning!

[sberry]

This video is the best I've found at explaining squirt (deflection) and swerve which are the 2 main effects of playing with side:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms&feature=plcp

squirt/deflection is mostly due to the end mass of the cue, basically it is down to how much force it takes to move the tip of the cue to the side, an "equal and opposite" force is applied to the white ball at the point of contact causing deflection.

deflection is fairly constant, cue elevation, power and amount of side etc all make only small adjustments to the amount of deflection.

swerve is caused by the rotation of the ball and the nap of the cloth.

swerve is affected greatly by power (more power delays the swerve), cue elevation (more elevation increases the swerve), a thicker nap will make the swerve take earlier and have more effect.

The test vmax describes is a good one, you could also use the test in the video I linked playing it down the center of the table from the brown spot and seeing how far to the left/right of center it strikes the top (black) rail.

There are some great scientific books on the physics of motions in billiards and snooker, etc, but you can guarantee that Judd Trump and the rest of the pros don't know or need to know any of this, they just keep a cue they like and keep potting the balls.

[nrage]

There are some great scientific books on the physics of motions in billiards and snooker, etc, but you can guarantee that Judd Trump and the rest of the pros don't know or need to know any of this, they just keep a cue they like and keep potting the balls.

What you're forgetting is that they have been playing for 10+ years and in that time while they may not have learned the underlying law (physics), what they have learned is a series of cause = effect statements like
"if you hit the white low, it will screw back"
and so on.

Yes, you can play snooker without having a conscious understanding of the physics involved by no-one can play snooker to a high standard without a deep understanding of the effect of various actions/causes/things you can do on a table.

Does knowing the underlying laws make you a better player, no. But it does help you figure out what happened when the reality defies your unconscious idea of what was going to happen. So, in a WTF moment knowing the laws will help you understand it, and form a new cause = effect statement for your unconscious so that you learn and don't repeat your mistake.

Without understanding the laws you're left having to repeat yourself several times until you find the pattern or law by trial and error.

I know which I prefer.

[sberry]

That's all any player needs to know, where the white goes when he hits it in different places.

No player 'needs' to understand deflection, throw, or whether a cue might have certain qualities, they just need to find a stick they like and practice whether they learn by experience, coaching, watching others or books.

There's a danger of over-complicating things I think.

[nrage]

That's all any player needs to know, where the white goes when he hits it in different places.

.. and where the white goes after it hits the object ball when rolling, sliding, screwing back.
.. and ...

the list goes on. Now, you can either learn all that through trial and error as you're suggesting. Or, you can learn a bit of theory and when something odd happens you can reason out why, rather than having to repeat it several times, in several different ways and try and determine a pattern. Having the theory is faster.

No player 'needs' to understand deflection, throw, or whether a cue might have certain qualities, they just need to find a stick they like and practice whether they learn by experience, coaching, watching others or books.

That's one way to do it, I believe it takes longer than learning a bit of theory to help you along the way.

There's a danger of over-complicating things I think.

It's true that if you have no knowledge you cannot possibly over-think/complicate things. So, having knowledge makes it possible to overthink, and this is "dangerous". But, just having knowledge doesn't mean you will over-think/complicate things. And not having knowledge means you're gonna be confused a lot, for a long while.

[damienlch]

To test just how much your own cue deflects the cue ball when playing with side simply place the cue ball against the top cushion and play a shot with side along the cushion to pot the cue ball into the adjacent pocket.
The cue ball will leave the cushion when using left hand side from the green side of the table and vice versa, and will drive into the cushion when using right hand side from the green side of the table and vice versa.

That's interesting, I never thought of doing that before. Wonder if it'll be difficult to stick the cue ball against the cushion with side... going try it out the next time I'm at the club. I have a good feeling, could prove to be insightful this.

[davipp]

Understanding the theory of cue throw or the effects of side gives the owner of the cue a better insight of what his cue is capable of.

Forinstance a team mate of mine, 50+ break maker was playing a shot where the cue ball was just a whisker off the black, he played with side to just nick the black and possibly snooker his opponent, BUT he missed the black altogether!

When I explained to him why he was still not completley convinced that at such a minute gap between the cue ball and the object ball you would throw the cue ball away from the black. The lower he kept the butt of the cue the better the shot was executed.

Probably what my question is asking is it the cue it self that throws or not throws, or is it the elevation of the cue butt that creates the throw. So therefore any cue can give the impression that it does or does not throw?

[davipp]

Thanks for the video, very interesting. When I cue up and down the spots the cue ball travels in a straight line and then deviates left or right depending on what side I've used. I have always wondered why then do I allow for side when potting a ball when the cue ball travels straight??
I will keep watching the video til' I fully understand it.
I suppose by calculating the angle of the butt above the table to the force at which we strike the white along with the distance the cue ball has to travel we could come up with a reasonable mathematical answer to the theory of throw.
There are a few more elements in control of the shot such as cloth thickness, with or against the nap.
I suppose the brass ferrule would effect the shot as opposed to a plastic one and as the video shows the flexibilty of the shaft.
When we purchase a new cue we have to get used to it and without going into too much science we gradually find out what is needed to play certain shots.
Of course when it doesn't happen quick enough we discard that cue for another
I'm sure a cue maker out there uses some design technolgy to achieve the best performing cue.

[nrage]

Dr Dave has some technical proof's, and videos of just about everything you can imaging WRT billiards and physics:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/

For stuff related to cue deflection search for "squirt" as he uses that term to describe what we've been talking about. He uses the term "throw" for the effect caused by "english" (side spin) on the white transferring to the object ball (throwing it off the expected line).

[davipp]

Fantastic site thank you nrage. I can relate to some of those videos and now understand why some shots that look like they are on but are missed.
Usually a pool table has no nap, so the effect may be different on a snooker table with a heavy nap, anyway great information I will try some of those experiments soon.