Interesting discussion Coutts cue for Ding Junhui!

[cueman]

Just logged into FB and read on Dave Coutts page that he had an enquiry to make a cue for Ding today and turned the job down because Ding didn't want to have a badge fitted to the cue.

Dave's reasoning for this is that its, "like having a Rolex made without the name". Now I'm not so sure this is a good comparison, I mean a cue at the end of the day is just a piece of ash and Ebony with a ferrule, maybe an end joint and a tip. Hardly a watch with complex movements inside made with fine intricate and extremely delicate adjustments to get the watch running to Chronometre spec! Not to mention that Rolex watches are jewellery and are a statement of wealth amongst many owners, I doubt anyone owns a cue, especially a top player with the main aim to show off amongst his contemporaries.

Personally I feel this has come across as Dave being a bit of a diva in the cue making industry and perhaps his reputation has got to his head a little. For me he should be honoured and humble enough to acknowledge that a top pro has done enough research to want him to make a cue for him and you should always give the customer what he asks for. After all he is paying for your services and its not everyday one of the greatest players in the modern game is going to come knocking on your door so to speak.

Quite a few players down the years have had their badges removed from cues when they have had alterations or work carried out and I don't personally see Dave's gripe here. I feel he will live to regret this decision as Ding could well have gone on and played with his cue and won a world title with it and that would be worth far more to Dave than the fact that it carried his badge, which could still be removed at any given point in the future.

Your thoughts?

[jrc750]

Don't know what to think lol, but Jonathan Lonergan just delivered a cue to Ding today, he must be on a mission to look for a new playing cue

[Neil Taperell]

Ding is getting cues made by virtually every cue maker in the last year . I know that a member on here was getting them sent to his house , then was forwarding them onto China .
The other question , are they actually for Ding or is someone trying it on to jump the queue and beat the waiting list ?

Personally don't blame him , it's like buying a car and taking the badge off . I've got a Rolex and wouldn't take the name off it

[cueman]

Well for me I've never been bothered about brands or the name badge on a cue. I'm not in the business of selling cues, and nor do I look to make a profit off selling a cue. Quite the opposite in fact, I often buy cues and sell them to players or friends for a lot less than what I paid for.

Not sure about who is making these enquiries or that but I highly doubt that someone would get away with this without it becoming known. Jon Lonergan was taking the cue personally to Ding at the Star academy today so that puts that myth to bed, again I think its someone making stuff up as you often find on FB and this site at times.

As for the not having the badge on the cue my thinking would be this. If you are a player who is looking for a cue to use then I think its wise to actually have a number of cues made up, all identical in design and spec and then picking out the cue which performs best. If you have the badge on the cue then you can be swayed by the reputation in your decision to use a particular cue. There are many people on this forum that have bought cues by certain cue makers and swear by them yet sell them on when they don't perform as expected within a week of having it. Some would never touch a cue based on reputation because they are badge snobs. You could put a dunns cue or condy cue next to a TW and most would only use the TW because of the cost and value, despite the fact the other two could suit the player better, that is why badges can be an unnecessary distraction when choosing which cue to use.

[Stupree]

Interesting discussion Coutts cue for Ding Junhui!

Its Dave's right to represent his name as he sees fit and good on him for not jumping straight in to what would be a great vanity deal.

Also let's be certain clear that to my knowledge nobody has been approached by Ding himself, it is all happening via a representative. I wouldn't be surprised to know that Ding for some unknown reason was unable to personally receive the cue from Jonathan Lonergan.

It will be interesting to see this develop.

[Leo]

You could put a dunns cue or condy cue next to a TW and most would only use the TW because of the cost and value, despite the fact the other two could suit the player better, that is why badges can be an unnecessary distraction when choosing which cue to use.

Agreed, you only have to look on the thread named pictures of your cues on here where some people have put some right dog awful looking cues up but once the name badge catches people eye for some unknown reason they all say it's lovely

[trevs1]

Just logged into FB and read on Dave Coutts page that he had an enquiry to make a cue for Ding today and turned the job down because Ding didn't want to have a badge fitted to the cue.

Dave's reasoning for this is that its, "like having a Rolex made without the name". Now I'm not so sure this is a good comparison, I mean a cue at the end of the day is just a piece of ash and Ebony with a ferrule, maybe an end joint and a tip. Hardly a watch with complex movements inside made with fine intricate and extremely delicate adjustments to get the watch running to Chronometre spec! Not to mention that Rolex watches are jewellery and are a statement of wealth amongst many owners, I doubt anyone owns a cue, especially a top player with the main aim to show off amongst his contemporaries.

Personally I feel this has come across as Dave being a bit of a diva in the cue making industry and perhaps his reputation has got to his head a little. For me he should be honoured and humble enough to acknowledge that a top pro has done enough research to want him to make a cue for him and you should always give the customer what he asks for. After all he is paying for your services and its not everyday one of the greatest players in the modern game is going to come knocking on your door so to speak.

Quite a few players down the years have had their badges removed from cues when they have had alterations or work carried out and I don't personally see Dave's gripe here. I feel he will live to regret this decision as Ding could well have gone on and played with his cue and won a world title with it and that would be worth far more to Dave than the fact that it carried his badge, which could still be removed at any given point in the future.

Your thoughts?

Cueman, while I respect your views on this, I would have to say I disagree with them.

I am 100% with Dave on this. Standing by the product carrying his name shows a level of integrity that some others would not get near, and to my mind, he should be applauded for it. Trust me when I say this too, that in my opinion, Dave does not need Ding at all. I would wager he does quite well just as he is, with no further endorsement from any professional required to enhance his "already" sound reputation as a great cue maker.

If it were me, I would do exactly the same. If the badge were removed later due alterations, then so be it. But as for supplying a new custom built cue, no, either it has a badge fitted or does not get made for that customer, sorry.

[trevs1]

Well for me I've never been bothered about brands or the name badge on a cue. I'm not in the business of selling cues, and nor do I look to make a profit off selling a cue. Quite the opposite in fact, I often buy cues and sell them to players or friends for a lot less than what I paid for.

Not sure about who is making these enquiries or that but I highly doubt that someone would get away with this without it becoming known. Jon Lonergan was taking the cue personally to Ding at the Star academy today so that puts that myth to bed, again I think its someone making stuff up as you often find on FB and this site at times.

As for the not having the badge on the cue my thinking would be this. If you are a player who is looking for a cue to use then I think its wise to actually have a number of cues made up, all identical in design and spec and then picking out the cue which performs best. If you have the badge on the cue then you can be swayed by the reputation in your decision to use a particular cue. There are many people on this forum that have bought cues by certain cue makers and swear by them yet sell them on when they don't perform as expected within a week of having it. Some would never touch a cue based on reputation because they are badge snobs. You could put a dunns cue or condy cue next to a TW and most would only use the TW because of the cost and value, despite the fact the other two could suit the player better, that is why badges can be an unnecessary distraction when choosing which cue to use.

Bit highlighted I do agree with.

[itsnoteasy]

Cueman, while I respect your views on this, I would have to say I disagree with them.

I am 100% with Dave on this. Standing by the product carrying his name shows a level of integrity that some others would not get near, and to my mind, he should be applauded for it. Trust me when I say this too, that in my opinion, Dave does not need Ding at all. I would wager he does quite well just as he is, with no further endorsement from any professional required to enhance his "already" sound reputation as a great cue maker.

If it were me, I would do exactly the same. If the badge were removed later due alterations, then so be it. But as for supplying a new custom built cue, no, either it has a badge fitted or does not get made for that customer, sorry.

This may be true, but putting it on Facebook shows no integrity at all IMO , if he had got this request and knocked it back, as he has every right to ,and kept it private ,to me that would show integrity and respect for the customer. To me telling everyone on a very public thing like Facebook shows he does want the publicity of Dings name, otherwise why mention it at all, because let's face it ,cue maker turns down request to make a cue, isn't a story at all, untill you add in the name of the customer, so I see no Integrity in what has been done, quite the opposite , the situation has been exploited exactly because of who the request came from. I would guess because of this he has lost a customer for life.
I would like to add, I have had a Condy cue , decent playing cue, but to say take the badges off and you couldn't tell the difference between the quality of it and what TW makes just beggars belief , not on about how they play but just by the quality of workmanship of the two cues lying side by side ,you could tell them appart from a mile away.

[trevs1]

This may be true, but putting it on Facebook shows no integrity at all IMO , if he had got this request and knocked it back, as he has every right to ,and kept it private ,to me that would show integrity and respect for the customer. To me telling everyone on a very public thing like Facebook shows he does want the publicity of Dings name, otherwise why mention it at all, because let's face it ,cue maker turns down request to make a cue, isn't a story at all, untill you add in the name of the customer, so I see no Integrity in what has been done, quite the opposite , the situation has been exploited exactly because of who the request came from. I would guess because of this he has lost a customer for life.
I would like to add, I have had a Condy cue , decent playing cue, but to say take the badges off and you couldn't tell the difference between the quality of it and what TW makes just beggars belief , not on about how they play but just by the quality of workmanship of the two cues lying side by side ,you could tell them appart from a mile away.

Yes, that's a very good point and I completely agree that it's something that should have remained private.

I had not properly read / considered the part about it being posted via Facebook. The choice and reason to refuse the work is fair enough, but yes, it should defninitely not be placed in the public domain.

Thanks for correcting me on that Itsnoteasy, I got that wrong.

[Leo]

I would like to add, I have had a Condy cue , decent playing cue, but to say take the badges off and you couldn't tell the difference between the quality of it and what TW makes just beggars belief ,

I think the point was more to do with you blind fold many people on here and ask them to take a few shots without looking at the cue they wouldn't have a clue who made that cue. If I done it i could tell you how I think the cue feels, but there's no way I could tell you who made the cue and don't think there is one person on the forum who could.

[hendrykitty]

i was just the member here you have mentioned who had helped ding to order cues from different makers, all the cues he had are with him, not in my collection, so far as i know, he gave one to his traing partner in uk, also a chinese player, one to his former coach when he was just a starter in shanghai, kept 3 cues in his home in beijing, and one in his home in sheffield, he got the jonathan one yesterday, i have paid every cents to the maker, i am not a seller, just help him for some reasons, i think jonathan lonergan can prove this

about his new cue, that started 3 years ago, he had some problems with his cuerrent playing stamford one, then he has ordered another stamford one with a multicolor leather case, which he was not so satisfied, when his club in shanghai reopen after the decoration, some trevor white cues arrived for my freinds, one of which he preferred a lot and made a maximum for the first shot of the cue, then he wanted to buy one from my freind but was refused, he asked me to order another one from trevor, but trevor did not reply my email and never picked up my call, so he asked me to order some cues from different makers just to try, but up to now, he did not get the right one, maybe he is too fussy on cues

[Leo]

i was just the member here you have mentioned who had helped ding to order cues from different makers, all the cues he had are with him, not in my collection, so far as i know, he gave one to his traing partner in uk, also a chinese player, one to his former coach when he was just a starter in shanghai, kept 3 cues in his home in beijing, and one in his home in sheffield, he got the jonathan one yesterday, i have paid every cents to the maker, i am not a seller, just help him for some reasons, i think jonathan lonergan can prove this

about his new cue, that started 3 years ago, he had some problems with his cuerrent playing stamford one, then he has ordered another stamford one with a multicolor leather case, which he was not so satisfied, when his club in shanghai reopen after the decoration, some trevor white cues arrived for my freinds, one of which he preferred a lot and made a maximum for the first shot of the cue, then he wanted to buy one from my freind but was refused, he asked me to order another one from trevor, but trevor did not reply my email and never picked up my call, so he asked me to order some cues from different makers just to try, but up to now, he did not get the right one, maybe he is too fussy on cues

So he's another dominic dale, who spends more time changing his cues and wonder why their form keeps dropping.

[Chappy5]

Nothing wrong IMO with Coutts doing what he did.

It is his Cue at the end of the day and if he makes a Cue worthy enough of being able to be played by a top ranked player that he may win a championship with why should his name be kept off the superb piece of craftsman ship he created??

Ding is just being facetious IMO and why would you even ask for the makers badge to be removed anyway if you want him to custom make a Cue for you? It is almost like if he got asked " Who makes that Cue " he could say anything and no one would be none the wiser while the name he just dropped gets a massive boost regardless if they made it or not.

If i was Coutts i would do the exact same thing and also take it as a bit of an insult that the player wants your badge removed. Arguing whether or not he was right in discussing the issue on Facebook is debatable but i do not see a problem with it and put yourself in the Cue makers shoes and what he is trying to achieve here as a business owner and professional Cue maker in a hard market to crack.

[cueman]

This may be true, but putting it on Facebook shows no integrity at all IMO , if he had got this request and knocked it back, as he has every right to ,and kept it private ,to me that would show integrity and respect for the customer. To me telling everyone on a very public thing like Facebook shows he does want the publicity of Dings name, otherwise why mention it at all, because let's face it ,cue maker turns down request to make a cue, isn't a story at all, untill you add in the name of the customer, so I see no Integrity in what has been done, quite the opposite , the situation has been exploited exactly because of who the request came from. I would guess because of this he has lost a customer for life.
I would like to add, I have had a Condy cue , decent playing cue, but to say take the badges off and you couldn't tell the difference between the quality of it and what TW makes just beggars belief , not on about how they play but just by the quality of workmanship of the two cues lying side by side ,you could tell them appart from a mile away.

Felt I had to clear this up. In no way did I say or intimate that the standard of work of TW is comparable to that of Dunns or Condy or any other budget line cue maker. I was merely making the point that many people would not even give these cues a second look despite the fact that they could well perform better for them than a more expensive cue, I was perhaps wrong to use TW as an example only, I should have included other premium brand names but as TW is the most popular cue maker amongst members of this site I felt it was more relevant to use his name on this occasion.