Frustating table- help.

[Sea Chief]

Cushion Undercuts.pdf


DONE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok chaps, this is my last hurrah.. but please bear with me. Ok 1stly can anyone open/ see the image clicking on link?

[Sea Chief]

Anyone? there are 8 folks browsing.. maybe I need a new thread just for this cushion undercut Q.

[DeanH]

[ATTACH]19026[/ATTACH]


DONE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok chaps, this is my last hurrah.. but please bear with me. Ok 1stly can anyone open/ see the image clicking on link?

Yep, see the PDF as a download.
I believe these show the progression of the undercut as it goes into the throat of the pocket.

[Sea Chief]

Great. Aha a progression?? right that explains why the image is as it is. Finally.. Ive been mulling over what exactly these 3 images represent for a week!

Ok understood. But the 3rd image down shows a 'sharp' top bit. I do -not- see this on -any- actual table anywhere. I have traced the jaw profile of my hall table in town: yes it gets thinner, but only by way of an equal ammount extracted above & below the mid pont (of this 1/2" rubber 'face' lets call it) IE in my hall eg, & mine too, the ball hits less ammount of cushion in the jaws yes... but... unlike the 3rd image.. the ball is not tucked under a lip/ it is not tucked a bit farther into the cushion as a result [PLUS surely, the 3rd image down CANNOT entertain as much bounce SURELY with this sharpe relief toppermost of the ball].

Can anyone see what Im on about??

[Geoff Large]

The rubber should be like the top illustration , flat surface like the face of the rubber all the way into the rear of the angle to the pocket plate .

the sharp cut to a point was used in the 1970's and 80's but if you look on TV tables it is now flat profile , I always rasp the under cut part to smooth out any knife cuts .

i also take a bit of sand paper to the very top of the flat and the bottom of the flat face to make sure it is not sharp or it will cut through the cloth .

look at bottom photo for the correct cut http://gclbilliards.com/gcl-billiard...ion-re-rubber/

also look here at bad cut rubber replaced with the correct angle profile http://gclbilliards.com/re-rubber-an...-now-improved/

and another http://gclbilliards.com/northampton-...-napped-cloth/

and even on smaller tables using 5/8th size rubber the angle is still cut with a flat profile http://gclbilliards.com/rock-hard-7f...ven-to-client/

[philip in china]

Thanks, Geoff. Whenever you post a link to your site I access it and have a snoop around. It is usually good for an hour and is never disappointing.

[Sea Chief]

Hi Geoff- ah that's thrown a fly in my ointment then on these 3 images. Still my idea remains..

What I was sort of suggesting as only an idea, is that if the 3rd image -was indeed- a profile of tables (albeit in another era) why in theory can't I ask our fitter to replicate this 'sharp top' just by way of sanding the undercut to the rubber face-?

It might not be 'as it should be' or as anything today is, but then our table is stuck in the 1930's by all accounts.. this would actually 'modernise' it, as it were.

The reason I suggest this idea is thus:

1) we (I) can't afford any more on the table, £120 just spent

2) a fitter -is- coming back to rejig foc 'ok ok we'll get a fitter back & sort it for you' so Absolute say on phone (tho you state this isn't possible, & I trust your judgement over theirs, which leaves the niggling Q about whether they should have done the work at all & not informed us the table wasn't possible to do).. so its worth trying at least something.. bar a wee trim back onwards from where they tentatively stopped short of the back wood bit.

3) if the ball -does- tuck a little more under an (even exaggerated) lip profile newly sanded.. then surely, surely this will at the least, even if its by a small ammount, mean the ball A) has less bounce, & more of a deadening in jaws perhaps even aiding the ball to drop, again even a fraction more beneficial/ we're desperate here, and B) a wee bit more pocket width as the ball now tucks under by a 1/16 more within jaws each side (1/8" has to be of benefit for --our-- particular eg.

It might not be 'correct' (as you say its an old cushion profile), but for our table, might it be of benefit to our problem which protractively/ obdurately remains (or, rather this is the only practical thing we can address w'out rail replacements we cannot afford) at the pockets' jaw curves?

[vmax]

Having seen the pic of the corner pocket it looks just like our match table. Very interesting posts from Geoff, explains why our table has such tight corners. I've tried the 5 reds below the black line up and can't get past three of the buggers, now I know why. Only put two there now and that's hard enough but once past them the table plays OK, it's the balls near the cushion that's the problem, even the black is a bitch to pot at pace.

The pockets were opened up when new cushions were fitted about ten years ago, prior to that it was impossible to pot a ball along the cushion at anything above pocket weight, now they do but they have to be absolutely spot on.

I've made my highest break of 86 on this table (prior to the new cushions), and many 70+'s and 50+'s and I've always felt that the tv tables were easy in comparison, now I know for sure that they are. Going back twenty years there was a young lad called Mark Jones who made several tons on this table, a few against me, who sadly no longer plays due to eyesight problems, how good was he I ask myself.

A local bloke from Bideford called Nicky Marsh who turned pro for as couple of years and was a very tasty player (he too no longer plays), made a total clearance against me once on his own table, but called our table 'the beast' and couldn't function on it.

[Sea Chief]

I've made my highest break of 86 on this table (prior to the new cushions), and many 70+'s and 50+'s and I've always felt that the tv tables were easy in comparison, now I know for sure that they are.

I was watching the masters (1st time watching for a decade+ I don't have patience for tv snoox anymore) & was adamant this was the case myself too.. the pockets looked -way- easier than ours, -way- more visible pocket for a cushion shot: a ball seemingly almost as easy nr cushion to a straight on (ut the www info say 3-1/2" W is pro width). Looked like buckets compared to ours.

Also I took note of the pocket curves: there is not a curve really at all, more a dog-leg of two flat sides joined by a smallish curve in the midpoint/ knuckle, which clearly (I scanned countless shot which aimed directly at the 'flat' jaw faces & the ball droped) facilitates potting.

With our table its so bad, you go in with a spring in your step to at least pot a few, have a bit of straight practise shots/ a bit of a relax after a days work.. & you give up after an hour feeling irritated & stressed out- its unbearable.

[Sea Chief]

Having seen the pic of the corner pocket it looks just like our match table. Very interesting posts from Geoff, explains why our table has such tight corners. I've tried the 5 reds below the black line up and can't get past three of the buggers, now I know why. Only put two there now and that's hard enough but once past them the table plays OK, it's the balls near the cushion that's the problem, even the black is a bitch to pot at pace.

Sounds just like ours. I'vbe potted one ball only near cushion at pace, ever. I'd bet they're calling an old billiards table a 'match table' out of ill-information, or hoodwinking so familiar those symptoms sound.

[vmax]

Sounds just like ours. I'vbe potted one ball only near cushion at pace, ever. I'd bet they're calling an old billiards table a 'match table' out of ill-information, or hoodwinking so familiar those symptoms sound.

It's set aside for league players only and there is a sense of achievement when you make a 50+ break on it. As you can't hit them hard you learn to use side to move the cue ball around which is the way it was back in the day. Those power stun run throughs don't work, well they do but only if you're spot on and to be spot on you're always flirting with the near jaw because you know they won't go in off the far jaw like they do on tv.

But you're right it is restrictive and I wouldn't expect a new player to try to learn what they see on tv on a table like this, they'll either walk away or learn to leave the balls near the cushions alone.

[Geoff Large]

Hi Geoff- ah that's thrown a fly in my ointment then on these 3 images. Still my idea remains..

What I was sort of suggesting as only an idea, is that if the 3rd image -was indeed- a profile of tables (albeit in another era) why in theory can't I ask our fitter to replicate this 'sharp top' just by way of sanding the undercut to the rubber face-?

It might not be 'as it should be' or as anything today is, but then our table is stuck in the 1930's by all accounts.. this would actually 'modernise' it, as it were.

The reason I suggest this idea is thus:

1) we (I) can't afford any more on the table, £120 just spent

2) a fitter -is- coming back to rejig foc 'ok ok we'll get a fitter back & sort it for you' so Absolute say on phone (tho you state this isn't possible, & I trust your judgement over theirs, which leaves the niggling Q about whether they should have done the work at all & not informed us the table wasn't possible to do).. so its worth trying at least something.. bar a wee trim back onwards from where they tentatively stopped short of the back wood bit.

3) if the ball -does- tuck a little more under an (even exaggerated) lip profile newly sanded.. then surely, surely this will at the least, even if its by a small ammount, mean the ball A) has less bounce, & more of a deadening in jaws perhaps even aiding the ball to drop, again even a fraction more beneficial/ we're desperate here, and B) a wee bit more pocket width as the ball now tucks under by a 1/16 more within jaws each side (1/8" has to be of benefit for --our-- particular eg.

It might not be 'correct' (as you say its an old cushion profile), but for our table, might it be of benefit to our problem which protractively/ obdurately remains (or, rather this is the only practical thing we can address w'out rail replacements we cannot afford) at the pockets' jaw curves?

Undercutting to a point and not flat faced is old fashioned it causes two problems but may solve your access into the pocket
Flat face into pocket was introduced to rectify these two main problems with a pointed undercut .

problem one is you are taking the body and support out of the rubber , when you pull the cloth over the corner angle to staple underneath it bends the top of the nose over , as there is no rubber body left as you have undercut it all out .

problem two is that when a ball strikes a severe undercut like what you are proposing to have the bottom of the ball is equal force to the side of the ball .
that is you are hitting the undercut and the force is also transferred equally to the base of the ball which is in contact with the bed cloth in the jaws of the pocket .
This causes tracking or ball track indentations at the corner pockets , that severed that it will not be long before these track marks wear through to the slate ,= life span of Bed and cushion cloth is reduced with severe undercutting to a point .
it wears the cloth out twice as fast .

[markz]

Maybe too simple of a solution but you might just need to practice more.

[philip in china]

We all need to practice more!

[Geoff Large]

It's set aside for league players only and there is a sense of achievement when you make a 50+ break on it. As you can't hit them hard you learn to use side to move the cue ball around which is the way it was back in the day. Those power stun run throughs don't work, well they do but only if you're spot on and to be spot on you're always flirting with the near jaw because you know they won't go in off the far jaw like they do on tv.

But you're right it is restrictive and I wouldn't expect a new player to try to learn what they see on tv on a table like this, they'll either walk away or learn to leave the balls near the cushions alone.

Unless your cushions are steel cushions like on TV which have a differnat drop angle after the fall , in that the rubber stops far away from the pocket plate and there is no angle cut into wood capping on steel cushions .

then to compare a table to a TV match steel cushioned table is not fair on the Standard cushion that I think you are talking about . LOOK at the rubber on normal cushions where it wraps round to the pocket plate
steel cushions will accept a ball off the far angle as the rubber finishes inward of the rear of the pocket rather than all the way back to the leather on standard cushion .

you only have to see the difference from steel to wood cushion from this table to see what I mean .

http://gclbilliards.com/replace-stan...-leg-in-derby/

The owner of this table did not like the restrictive pockets of the /Riley table so bought a second hand set of Burroughs and watts steel cushions and is now very happy with the pocket taking balls that he could not do on the standard wood cushions .
He sold the other cushions , but I bet who ever bought them finds they are restrictive on getting balls down from certain angles and forced shots .

it is unfair to compare standard cushions with Steel cushions as used on a Star table .
and also unfair to think it is possible to make older cushions play like modern cushions , because of all the pitfalls of block overhang and more length to cushions and smaller pocket plates that I have explained in this thread .

you can pick up rough second hand steel Burroughs and watts cushions with pocket plates and all bolts for a round £400 do them up and fit them at extra cost of course , just like my client had done .

I have two sets of Burroughs and watts Steel cushions with pocket plates and bolts for sale at £400 ONO a set if anyone wants them as they are , they will require a bit of wood work repair and polishing a re-rubber and re-cover plus nets and leathers which I have not got time to do , as I am fully booked out .
but they can go like they are for just £400 ONO a set . they will fit most 5 bolt hole side cushions and 6 bolt hole end cushioned tables but will require drilling out to fit modern tables 6 bolt holes in all cushions .
they are clogging up my Garage space .