What exactly is a pendulum stroke?

[poolqjunkie]

I was reading some coaching article by some Americans such as Randy G and Scott Lee. I dont know if they can play themselves, but if I understand what they are saying correctly they seem to believe that the best stroke to teach a student is this "pendulum" stroke. If I understand their version of this stroke correctly, they seem to believe that the the player's elbow should not drop at all.

It just makes no sense to me at all!

I remember reading a part where this Scott Lee person said he would put a coin on someone's elbow and it should not drop during a stroke.

I think Ronnie. Higgins, and many top pros woudl fail this test!

A pendulum by definition involves a ball going down and then up in a curve. Are they actually believe that the stroke shoudl move along a curve from up to down?

Funny thing is they actually say they "discovered" this stroke from watching Allison Fisher and other snooker players. I think years ago the older players in the US actually believed in standing more erect and drop their elbow, like Mosconi, Ray Martin...but then these new coaches came along and started teaching their students to put their chins down on their cues, have a pause at the end of the stroke, and keep their elbows up.

However, I do not think they really understand the snooker stroke if they think an elbow drop is bad.

I also do not really see them talking about the grip, which I think is much more important than the elbow.

[JayDee]

If they are coaching 9ball pool then I think the elbow technique is wasted on them, as, they generally need less cue power and action on the white than snooker pros do.
It's alot easier to learn the Steve Davis mechanical textbook technique I guess, from a starting point, where less movement the less can go wrong with it. Not that it would be a good starting point for snooker pro's as you want to play through the white ball quite a bit, elbow dropping allows the cue to go straighter a bit further. Something totally unnecessary in 9ball.

[poolqjunkie]

Well, what I do not understand is that they seem to take the term pendulum literally and believe that the elbow is the hinge and should not drop.
But in order to draw back the cue for any sort of decent power, one has to open one's grip and drop the elbow, right?
I think there are lots of power shots required in 9 ball, with lots of side and so on, so to only use a very short stroke with no elbow drop is almost impossible to play the game at any decnet level..
It makes me wonder if the advocates of such stroke can really play the game themselves?

[Terry Davidson]

pqj:

I agree with you. I watched a coaching video from the States on 9-ball by supposedly one of the best coaches (youtube) and he actually measured and APPROVED of the fact that the student's cuebutt was rising at the end of the backswing and the cue came off the original almost parallel-to-the-table line.

His comment was, 'that looks PERFECT and when I put this line on the higher angle of the cue it's ONLY 7 degrees than at the address position' or something to that effect.

I wonder what he would do with a snooker player where there would be NO difference in the angle of the cue to the bed of the table?

Terry

[The Doctor]

It is most important to keep the cue as parallel to the table as possible through the entire stroke.
This is where the grip comes to the forefront. In order to keep the elbow in the address position the grip must be opened and closed to maintain this angle(plane).
If you look at John Higgins for example(whom i worked with for several years as his coach) You will notice that there is very little movement in his elbow through the stroke.
On the other hand Ronnie has a steeper starting position(a fault in my opinion) and in starting like this he is somewhat forced into dropping his elbow through the stroke to put the cue in parallel position. This is very difficult to do and is why i think his long game has went down hill.
So in summary. have a look at Higgins(and davis at his peak) and you will see how to execute the perfect stroke and movement. Hope this helps.

[Terry Davidson]

Doctor:

Just a question as I always though John Higgins dropped his elbow severly on his long backswing. I haven't checked a video since I read your post, but as a coach myself I point to John as one of the players with an extremely long backswing on most shots who takes his ferrule back to the 'V' of his bridge.

In doing this, and to keep the cue virtually parallel throughout the stroke, he almost straightens his right arm completely and when watching him from the front his elbow drops down below his head on the backswing, looks to be about 3in or so.

As John is not a long-armed tall guy like Mark Selby (or Steve Davis) I would think in order to get that cue back 9-10in or so he must drop his elbow (besides loosening the grip or in other words moving the grip to just the inside of the thumb and forefinger)

When I get a chance I will re-look at a Higgins match just to check out his elbow

Terry

[The Doctor]

Terry, you are correct to a certain degree, John's elbow does fall slightly on his backswing due to the length of his stroke, but my point was more to do with his elbow position at end of follow through.
If there is a slight fault in his technique, then it is that he is slightly too long in some shots. He is aware of this, but is comfortable with it.

[Forman]

Doctor:

Just a question as I always though John Higgins dropped his elbow severly on his long backswing. I haven't checked a video since I read your post, but as a coach myself I point to John as one of the players with an extremely long backswing on most shots who takes his ferrule back to the 'V' of his bridge.

In doing this, and to keep the cue virtually parallel throughout the stroke, he almost straightens his right arm completely and when watching him from the front his elbow drops down below his head on the backswing, looks to be about 3in or so.

As John is not a long-armed tall guy like Mark Selby (or Steve Davis) I would think in order to get that cue back 9-10in or so he must drop his elbow (besides loosening the grip or in other words moving the grip to just the inside of the thumb and forefinger)

When I get a chance I will re-look at a Higgins match just to check out his elbow

Terry

I agree, john has one of the most noticeable elbow drops on the backswing ive seen, it's quite obvious in this video i found: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TB0_7f5ft4

also check out 1:22 in the video for the extreme elbow drop

[lee brett]

I was reading some coaching article by some Americans such as Randy G and Scott Lee. I dont know if they can play themselves, but if I understand what they are saying correctly they seem to believe that the best stroke to teach a student is this "pendulum" stroke. If I understand their version of this stroke correctly, they seem to believe that the the player's elbow should not drop at all.

It just makes no sense to me at all!

I remember reading a part where this Scott Lee person said he would put a coin on someone's elbow and it should not drop during a stroke.

I think Ronnie. Higgins, and many top pros woudl fail this test!

A pendulum by definition involves a ball going down and then up in a curve. Are they actually believe that the stroke shoudl move along a curve from up to down?

Funny thing is they actually say they "discovered" this stroke from watching Allison Fisher and other snooker players. I think years ago the older players in the US actually believed in standing more erect and drop their elbow, like Mosconi, Ray Martin...but then these new coaches came along and started teaching their students to put their chins down on their cues, have a pause at the end of the stroke, and keep their elbows up.

However, I do not think they really understand the snooker stroke if they think an elbow drop is bad.

I also do not really see them talking about the grip, which I think is much more important than the elbow.

a pendulum stroke will break down under pressure and on tough shots.

all the greats of all time in all cue sports drop there elbow.
they teach there technique as they wont admit the elbow drop is more accurate and solid.

if you want to learn to drive, see a pendulum stroke instructor
if you want to learn to drive a racing car learn to drop your elbow
if you know what i mean.


give it 10 years and the whole of america will learn the elbow drop technique, and the pendulum will be where it belongs in the past, coaching techniques advance in all sports, learn to play natural, a golfer doesnt stop his golf club at the golf ball, and a tennis player at the tennis ball, learn to let the arm drop and hit through the cueball and you will soon pot balls like never before.

[C-J]

, learn to play natural, a golfer doesnt stop his golf club at the golf ball, and a tennis player at the tennis ball, learn to let the arm drop and hit through the cueball and you will soon pot balls like never before.

learn it and trust it!

[Giggity1984]

learn to let the arm drop and hit through the cueball and you will soon pot balls like never before.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement. I have recently seen significant improvements in my game by incorporating the elbow drop into my stroke.

All the greats (With a few exceptions) Drop the elbow on delivery.

Its revolutionised my game.

[spike]

I have recently seen significant improvements in my game by incorporating the elbow drop into my stroke.

Have you found that your long game has improved because of this?

[Giggity1984]

Have you found that your long game has improved because of this?

Very much so. Although I'm still getting used to it tbh and it doesn't feel 100% natural. But it is the most consistent I've ever played and has given me something to rely on.

I find the trick is to really consciously drop the elbow as you strike the ball. To give you some idea, balls that I would normally of made 3/10 times before trying the elbow drop, go down I'd say about 7 or 8/10.

I like to think of Ronnie's words "Pot with the elbow, it's the most consistent way" (He says it in Ronnie's Cue School video #3) to really ram the message home in my mind when playing, I find that helps me to drop the elbow when I start sneaking back into my old "peck" style of play.

[vmax4steve]

I disagree.
The elbow must drop after the cue ball has been struck, not before, otherwise you are putting your SHOULDER into the shot which is completely wrong. Check out some early footage of Jimmy White and Stephen Hendry and you will see that both of them never used to drop their elbows before contact with the cue ball. They both do now I'm afraid and suffer for it.

[Terry Davidson]

I agree with vmax, although RO'S does drop his elbow before hitting the cueball and does use his shoulder muscle for the power he gets, but he's been doing that since he was 8 years old and a real shorty. Don't try to copy that...the elbow should drop AFTER YOU HIT THE CUEBALL and nearer the end of the delivery. If you want longer follow-through this must be done to keep the cue level as you take your grip hand all the way through to your chest.

It should also drop at the end of the backswing in order to keep the cue as level as possible.

OK, I'm off to the airport to go to Wales. See you all in 3 weeks time

Terry