Cue delivery push ! Swing ! Clarify ?

[thelongbomber]

Re: Del Smith..

I don't have the formal coaching expertise but I know from experience a lot of players and coaches will try to implement corrective techniques rather than truly understanding what's required to play. Telling students to raise the cue up to get the soft screws and stuns is total hogwash (sorry no disrespect to Dell). So now, instead of having a singular, reliable, repeatable stance and arm angle for most of your shots (except off cushions and in akward scenarios), you now have to conciously raise up the cue in the middle of your game?? That can't be right. To get the soft screws and stuns, you need to have intimate control over your arm and hand acceleration and have a precise idea of where to strike the white.

When you play the game unconciously (when you are in the zone), you aren't thinking about cue angles.

[sydneygeorge]

Great input Shaun and Nrage.

[shaun]

Re: Del Smith..

I don't have the formal coaching expertise but I know from experience a lot of players and coaches will try to implement corrective techniques rather than truly understanding what's required to play. Telling students to raise the cue up to get the soft screws and stuns is total hogwash (sorry no disrespect to Dell).

If Del's Hogwash can teach his Students to do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDcD8...3YM6sy2EZiyFI=

then i dont mind listening to his " Crap ".
This is exactly how Del taught Sean about lifting the butt for short range stuns and screws, btw the guy picking up balls is not Del.

Sean o Sullivan is a well known amateur in East London, It was Del Smith who coached him until he got into England National Team.

I personally challenged Del about this lifting butt theory, Nic Barrow also dosent like this technique as the player is getting the eye level up which means he is more likely to miss a ball, but Del never coached any of his student to do that for mid or long range shots, you only should do that for close range stuns and screws to control the white more easily, the type of shots where u should do this is shown in that link.

The point i am trying to make is there is 100 ways of doing one thing. IF what is considered not to be correct can help someone make a 147 in line up then i would rather follow what is considered not to be correct.

In addition If Del was teaching his students loads of rubbish and hogwash, he wouldnt have become a Grade A World snooker coach and would never have been passed by Ray Reardon.

[Sam-Romford]

I've noticed Mark Selby uses a higher bridge for screw shots, but that is not considered correct technique

Terry

Thats a Big Statement. Even Steve Davis or Terry Griffith would be more cautious about declaring something to be incorrect.

Ray Reardon won World Championship more than three times i think with his elbow hanging out from the body and the line of aim which is also not considered to be correct.
Joe Swail and i think John Parrot as well is the extreme opposite of Ray Reardon have also been top players once upon a time with their techniques which are not considered to be correct.


Mark Selby may have something in his game which you as a Master coach may think is incorrect, but with this incorrect technique he is a former no.1 in the world and still is a world class player.

[DeanH]

...he is a former no.1 in the world...

not "a former" but "the current"

[shaun]

not "a former" but "the current"

So we can conclude that According to master coach Terry Davidson the current no.1 snooker player in the world have got something in his basic techniques which is considered not to be correct.

[throtts]

No, Shaun, as a rule alot of pro players have something that is deemed incorrect.. Its just every kind of snooker tuition be it in person or from a book has to point that snooker peer in the correct direction which is weighed up across the player spectrum. Eg, your not going to tell a player to point his elbow out of the line of the shot and also not too follow the cue through. Its all common sense.

And I hope your above post is not sarcasm, Terry is not deserving of it..

[perpetualboredom]

So we can conclude that According to master coach Terry Davidson the current no.1 snooker player in the world have got something in his basic techniques which is considered not to be correct.

No need for the attitude at all.

Terry is quite correct, it is not considered the ideal technique.

[shaun]

No need for the attitude at all.

Terry is quite correct, it is not considered the ideal technique.

And I hope your above post is not sarcasm, Terry is not deserving of it..[/QUOTE]

I never said Terry was wrong, he is correct, but we all should be cautious about when we talk about something with so much authority, if you listen Steve Davis talking about Ray Reardon's or Joe Swail's unorthodox technique they use very cautious language, like Sam said in his earlier post " even Steve Davis would be more cautious".

In the days of Joe Davis it was a norm to have the bridge arm ram rod straight, But Steve Davis never listened to that, but what does he say in his coaching book ? does he say " NO the bridge arm should not be straight, it should be angled slightly" ???

NO. and this is what he says "" ALTHOUGH its not a textbook practice i prefer to have my left arm a bit angled rather than keeping it dead straight".

If 6 times world champion uses this kind of cautious language to talk about something incorrect but works, then who are we?

And then we have this other bloke Longbomber who rules out that lifting butt SLIGHTLY for close range stuns and screws (which Mark Selby does) is a " hogwash ". I personally used think like that and disliked the way of lifting butt cos Nic Barrow asked me to keep my cue as flat as possible without touching the cushion rail , but one day i thought i should give this a try and i am being honest on that day i hit my highest 121 in a line up because i was getting more bite one the cue ball. Now if you tell me that something is Hogwash when it clearly helped me bit my highest break in line up obviously i will be annoyed a bit.

I think Longbomber didnt get the idea of lifting butt at all, the link which i gave him i hope this clearly demonstrates how to put it in action
here it is again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDcD8...feature=relmfu

notice how the butt is lifted SLIGHTLY to make the cue slightly inclined or sloped rather than keeping it parallel like the old school way, lifting butt dosent mean that you have to hold the cue like you are trying to make a jump shot like American pool players,
the link above clearly demonstrates how to do it. Although according to some people its considered not be correct.
Sean is a better player than i am but we both used this same method, Sean scores 147s regularly with this and i occasionally knock in tons.

I Know Nic Barrow quite well as i visited him several times and i also know about the IBSF master coach course that he runs, I can take this course anytime i want, but does it mean that if i become a master coach i cant go up to Mark Selby and tell him "what you are doing is wrong mate, you need to get your basics right."

Again Terry and longbomber is not wrong, but its not what they said which annoys me, but HOW they said it.

What matters more than what you say is HOW you say it.

[CoachGavin]

I think a coach has to try and give students the easiest and best way to improve. Yes there will always be players who do it differently ie alex higgins, joe swail etc but that does nt mean you teach that method as your standard teaching. Also a method is not consistent if you change your cue action on different length shots and when do you decide a shot is short range or medium range?

[CoachGavin]

Del and butt lifting

I think a coach has to try and give students the easiest and best way to improve. Yes there will always be players who do it differently ie alex higgins, joe swail etc but that does nt mean you teach that method as your standard teaching. Also a method is not consistent if you change your cue action on different length shots and when do you decide a shot is short range or medium range?

[throtts]

]
What matters more than what you say is HOW you say it.

Exactly why you were pulled up. See below your post...

"So we can conclude that According to master coach Terry Davidson the current no.1 snooker player in the world have got something in his basic techniques which is considered not to be correct".

You surely can see the wrong tone in your post ??...

Yes, all players are different with different styles that suit them. Obviously due to different genetics / mechanics of the body..There is one new pro (is it sam bird) where he actually lifts slowly up off the cue as he does the final delivery towards the cue ball, very subtle it is but its there.

[throtts]

]
What matters more than what you say is HOW you say it.

Exactly why you were pulled up. See below your post...

"So we can conclude that According to master coach Terry Davidson the current no.1 snooker player in the world have got something in his basic techniques which is considered not to be correct".

You surely can see the wrong tone in your post ??...

Yes, all players are different with different styles that suit them. Obviously due to different genetics / mechanics of the body..There is one new pro (is it sam bird) where he actually lifts slowly up off the cue as he does the final delivery towards the cue ball, very subtle it is but its there.

[Terry Davidson]

Let me clarify...what I meant was it is not considered 'ideal' to have the butt of the cue actually raising up 10degrees or so DURING the backswing. If a player sets up with his butt raised a bit BUT KEEPS THE CUE ON THE SAME PLANE as he backswings and delivers then there is not much of a problem although this is considered not 'ideal'. Mark Selby sets up this way when close in and using soft screw for position.

Why this method is not taught by most coaches is because the larger consideration in a snooker technique is CONSISTENCY. If a player uses different methods of set-up for different shots then he has to remember and coordinate each difference for every shot that fits the patterns he's selected.

I don't like to try and change a student's basic technique at all if I can avoid it but that is only as long as he's not doing something which prevents him from delivering the cue straight. This is why I'm not too concerned about the configuration of the grip but rather concentrate on the more important matter of not tightening the grip too early in the delivery. Same goes for the stance where it's considered 'ideal' to have some portion of the front of the foot directly under the grip hand when the grip forearm is vertical but I don't force my students into getting their laces right under the cue but I do prefer to have that foot on the line of aim as it simplifies the set-up and helps to get the elbow and shoulder in the line so the backswing and delivery can be keep straight and simple with fewer moving parts to coordinate

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

And I forgot to include this...virtually EVERY great professional player has some part of his set-up or technique which is not considered 'ideal' by most coaches. However this difference may suit that pro player's physique better or it may be the way he learned when he was young and it is completely natural to him (see Ronnie's delivery where he uses the shoulder muscle early in the delivery compared to the ideal technique or in other words drops his elbow earlier in the delivery).

If I had an average player who was doing what Ronnie does but it was the way he learned when he was younger I wouldn't try and change that particular movement unless it was preventing him from delivering consistently straight.

Terry