Cant EASB and World Snooker work together?

[CoachGavin]

This is mainly to coaches and people interested in being one and also for me to put my annoyance on screen!

3 years ago I applied to be a EASB coach as they were starting a coaching scheme and I thought it would add to my world snooker accreditation. After a year of messing about they finally had a meeting which I attended and plans were made. However a year later they decided the lad in charge could not handle the amount of work and he resigned leaving no scheme. Now the EASB have joined with the IBSF to create a coaching scheme with the help of Nic Barrow who I rate as a top coach. They are setting up a system of coaches from level 1 to level 4 depending on experience and qualifications etc. The scheme seems very good and is not too costly. Importantly they will not pass everyone but only the coaches that are good enough.

At the same time World snooker have also decided to re organise their coaching schemes with coaches and advanced coaches etc. However there seems to be no communication between the two. Does anyone know what the problem is as to me a lot of people are going to want to coach and not know which course to do and which one is the better. There is also the problem of which course would be best if you wish to work abroad? Is a World Snooker Coach seen as the best in the UK but abroad in say, India, they want to know if you are an IBSF coach?

To me the fact that there are 2 courses just makes it confusing and surely cant be great for the game. To me 1 course putting all resources together would surely be better. Just a thought )

[Souwester]

I am not involved with either body, so cannot comment on the current situation with either. However, I would say, from past experience, World Snooker does have a habit of doing whatever it wants, whenever it wants, without consultation and without considering the impact on others, and reneges on legally binding agreements. Maybe the IBSF (and EASB) are best off working without them.

[CoachGavin]

Yes. It just seems there has been a lack of consultation. As you say if World Snooker have a habit of doing this sort of thing then Maybe you are right and the IBSF are best working alone. I wonder if anyone knows anything else and if attempts were made to work together?

[100-uper]

The EASB coaching scheme was inactive for several years after the transition of the association from the control of WPBSA. The current scheme was set up as part of the application for Sport England recognition although there was no specific Coaching Director within the organisation at that time. The problems with integrating this scheme with the one operated by World Snooker were related to Sport England requirements to address the whole sport (which in the case of EASB included billiards) and to show an integrated system which reached grass roots. Development of this course was done in liaison with Martin Goodwill for billiards and Chris Lovell (World Snooker), so the idea of a common approach was investigated at this time.

Subsequently, EASB have appointed Danny Connolly to the role of Coaching Director and he comes with the experience of running similar scheme for tennis. The involvement with IBSF is his initiative, and as I understand it, the two bodies are working on a pilot scheme which can be rolled out to all IBSF Members.

In my view, this is the best way to proceed for a sustainable structure and would involve the World governing body providing assistance and accreditation to National Governing Bodies who would operate mutually compatible coaching schemes on a national basis.

World or regional bodies becoming directly involved in the registration of individual coaches will not work. This has already been proved with the current IBSF and European schemes which initially cream off a top level of existing commercial coaches, then start to founder. In my view, this will also ultimately prove to apply to the World Snooker scheme.

The developments currently underway with IBSF and EASB are really exciting and could proved to be the foundation of a proper global coaching initiative. I wish them every success.

[Terry Davidson]

Just to add a couple of things. Nic Barrow and Pascal have in the past worked very hard to combine the WPBSA and IBSF coaching schemes and in fact have a 'MOU' (Memorandum of Understanding) with the WPBSA plus the WPBSA has recognized Nic's IBSF coach training.

However, as was said above, Chris Lovell and the WPBSA totally ignored the MOU and carried on with their own coaching scheme even though Nic had already developed some very good coach training (I might be a little biased here as I am an IBSF Examiner and Master Coach). This route the WPBSA has decided to take has been very frustrating for Nic and it appears with this new IBSF/EBSA initiative that the organizations other than the WPBSA have decided to go their own way.

I also feel I have to add, with no disrespect to those WPBSA trained coaches, that I think the training both Nic Barrow give and also Terry/Wayne Griffiths give is far beyond what is given by the WPBSA for BOTH their Level I and Level II.

According to my certificates I am a certified WPBSA/IBSF/SnookerGym/EBSA Examiner (not for EBSA) and a Master Coach or Senior Coach. I'll have to check with Nic to see if I need any further upgrading however I don't believe I do.

It is very unfortunate the WPBSA has decided to go their own route and I suspect the only reason is money. Also, in my opinion, the training given by Nic is much more valuable than that given by the WPBSA and I believe the WPBSA training is more expensive for those levels they have developed. They get the students because of the cache of 'WPBSA' and because Steve Davis and Terry Griffiths give the training.

Terry

[CoachGavin]

Thanks for the information, especially you 100-uper as it makes a bit more sense now. It has been suggested to me not to bother with the EASB/ISBF course as everyone will have heard of the WPBSA and no one will know what the IBSF is and so it wont bring any weight to it. However I do agree with Terry that in terms of course content the new EASB/IBSF course seems much better and they also dont just give you your certificate but will actually fail you which in itself brings more prestige when you pass.

[ferret]

It was highlighted recently that it is impossible to fail the WPBSA course this was highlighted my a image which appeared on the internet mid session on day two (of the 3 day course) with all the coaches with their certificates.

There are lots of people within the game who are unhappy with the current course and it is unfortunate that they do not speak up more about their concernes, the few I have spoken to do not want to be seen to be slagging off Steve or Terry hence the silence but it is about time people started speaking their mind.

Snooker like many sports is built up from the grass routes but if we destroy the graas routes today there will be very little of a game left tomorrow.

In my opinion do The IBSF course then you can lift you head high and say you have been trained by the best and completed a course which you were examined on and not quite literally paid for a certificate.

I have held back in writing this reply as I know there is something coming very soon from a fellow journalist which with quite literally shock you! its all about the politics, the people and the reasoning behind the WPBSA course............ so for now I will keep quiet.

I also want to make it clear that I am not saying that the Coaches who have done The WPBSA course are not fit to coach people as we all know most are very experienced coaches in their own right and have only done the course to increase their profile in Snooker, I know several people who have done the course including ex-professional players who have all said the course is utter crap but it was needed to get more work.

Incidentally if you are looking for a coach then have a look at www.snookercoach.ws Gavin, Terry and Nic are all on there and if you have had coaching from any of the coaches on the website then please leave them some feedback as this increased the chances of then gaining new clients.

[CoachGavin]

I couldnt agree more to be honest. I think good coaches are only doing the wpbsa course a lot of the time because of the work it may bring in due to the name. That is why I am now looking to do the EASB/IBSF course instead of the advanced WPBSA course. The last WPBSA course I did was very weak on content and was also very costly.

You have made me curious now about what is coming out about the WPBSA Course. When will it be coming out so that we can find out?

[ferret]

Gavin give me a call when you have some free time, I have left my office number with the club.

[tommygunner1309]

Yeh Gavin, having completed the first course with such already recognised coaches like Lionel Payne etc, I think there is a real problem with organisation - and I think Terry Davidson has hit the nail on the head. Support or rather the lack of it, is driving me out of coaching. My love of snooker though is so great, that I recently qualified as a referee under Derek Budde, a very professional and knowledgeable tutor/examiner - and have found that such things as support and assistance are on immediate hand.
My own thoughts on WS snooker is that they are just intent on throwing out as many coaches as possible - and to be honest a two day course is just not enough to produce a snooker coach. I get more support and help from Nic Barrow than anyone else and find it extremely useful and for which I am grateful - but I have to admit to being disillusioned with what could have been a great scheme.
I just thank my lucky stars that I have my refereeing, with which I am totally happy with.
Great shame - but I think the until there are some serious changes with the WS coaching scheme I will not be the only one turning my back on it!!!!

[tommygunner1309]

I would also point out that ferret has it dead right that no one can fail the course. This is really a nonsense. I would much rather have had a longer course with a proper examination at the end of it. The results would then be in four grades.
1. Fail - but with the option of further instruction and a re-take.
2. Pass - a grade C pass - able to instruct beginners or simple techniques.
3. Pass - a grade B pass - intermediate level
4. Pass - a grade A pass - experienced and capable of instructing at all levels.

This then would give the person seeking lessons an insight to the coaches' ability.
I may well have scraped through as a grade C - but at least even if I had failed it would have given me the opportunity to decide whether or not I would actually be any good as a coach.
I feel much more confident in my role as a referee. A course over 3 weeks with a 50 odd question paper at the end of it. Even then, I am only a grade 3 ref, needing at least two years of experience before I could take a grade 2 exam, and then another 3 year gap until I would be eligible to take the grade 1. This to me is the way to go for coaching. Spotting what is wrong with a cue action is not always easy, and even then, knowing what to do about it is another ball game.
Ferret is also right that people who have done the course do not want to offend Terry and Steve. But I know from talking to other coaches on my course that there is a large degree of dissatisfaction. To start with, Chris Lovell admits that he does not coach one to one, but only takes groups. How can a person be head/lead coach if he doesn't coach on a one to one basis.
There is no doubt that changes need to be implemented. If I were to carry on with coaching, I would definately do a course with Nic Barrow or go down to Wales and do the course with Terry/Wayne.
Anyway - that is my thoughts on the matter - but I have to admit that if a pal asks me for advice on becoming a snooker coach, I would direct him/her directly to Nic Barrow.

[100-uper]

I took the impression during my discussions with Chris Lovell that the object of the World Snooker scheme was quantity rather than quality. The philosophy being that it was better to have a coach in every club, regardless of ability, rather than having no coach at all.

There may be something in this view, although I wouldn't find it hard to argue for the opposite position. Unfortunately, whether the current philosophy has merit or not, it looks as though the scheme will not manage to achieve the numbers necessary to prove the theory.

[CoachGavin]

I agree with Tommygunner in that the fact that coaches cant fail the course is always going to be a big problem. I have completed a couple of courses myself and I must admit a couple of the other coaches on the courses would not have passed if there was a proper exam. I think this is not terrible if the coach is perhaps just setting up a few tournaments or a junior club and is getting people to play the game but once they are taking money to teach people the correct technique and the correct shots/strategy/mental attitude etc then it is not good. I have now decided to not take the advanced WPBSA course and will be attempting the more thorough EASB/IBSF course with Nic Barrow.

[Hondo]

I think you are wise Gavin - and I am sure you will get much more respect having completed a proper coaching course