A discussion on Dropping the Elbow

[Terry Davidson]

First of all, let's start with a few facts:

1. In order to drop the elbow the upper arm must move down and this is done ONLY by the shoulder muscle.
2. The cue should be kept on a straight and almost level plane throughout both the backswing and delivery.
3. Getting the shoulder muscle involved in the delivery brings in inaccurate cueing UNLESS the player is able to drop the upper arm and elbow perfectly straight.
4. On a longer backswing the upper arm and elbow MUST DROP in order to keep the cue on that level plane.
5. Dropping the elbow at the VERY END of a power shot is sometimes necessary because of the accelerated mass of the cue and necessity of not stopping or slowing it down too early in the delivery.

So this all begs the question...on all but the most powerful shots why drop the elbow at all on the delivery? The answer is because some players, especially those with a normally shorter backswing, will unconsciously use BOTH the muscle underneath the upper arm and the shoulder muscle in order to accelerate the cue faster to get more power instead of making their backswing longer and more proportional to the amount of power required.

So, in summary, it is good to drop the elbow perhaps one inch or so on a longer backswing and then at the start of the delivery return it to its highest position so it is in that position (the same position as at address) at the time of strike.

In the delivery there are no advantages to dropping the elbow at all except to get more power but that comes at the expense of accuracy for any player who cannot drop the elbow perfectly straight. This also means if a player is to drop his elbow during the delivery then he MUST have the elbow directly over the cue or otherwise he won't be able to drop the elbow perfectly vertical and will take the butt of the cue off the line of aim.

Think about it and decide if you are one of the vast majority of players who should not bring the shoulder muscle into the delivery at all. I would say less than 5% of shots are of a power that will force the elbow to drop NATURALLY at the end of the delivery and this is quite alright but the danger is that player will start dropping the elbow BEFORE THE STRIKE.

I now realize this and you can check my video out on the other string and you will see my elbow starts to drop early and it drops to the right of my body and my grip hand ends up well to the right.

After watching the German PTC and the 6-red and checking every pro for when and how they drop their elbows during the delivery I can guarantee you none of them are and that includes Ronnie, Robertson, Dott, Mark Davis, Shaun Murphy, Mark Selby, John Higgins and every one I watched although Ronnie will do a BIG elbow drop on a power shot but not on any lower power shots.

The famous elbow droppers were Joe Davis (did it to get past his chest as he had a severe boxer's stance), Tony Knowles (who did it on EVERY shot) and probably a few others I can't think of right now but I can now say they didn't get any advantage out of it and might have even suffered from a loss of accuracy although with their records the answer is they probably dropped the elbow straight down all the time.

Terry

[tedisbill]

Just watched a bit of Ronnie in Germany, and he certainly does drop his elbow on shots around the black spot. Not very much, but he's dropping it. Whereas Judd doesn't drop his at all.

[Terry Davidson]

tedisbill:

So are you saying dropping the elbow is a good thing because Ronnie does it or are you just saying I missed seeing Ronnie drop his elbow on every shot?

Whenever a player drops his elbow his is bringing his shoulder muscle into the shot and it's one more muscle which has to be coordinated. I said if a player has his elbow aligned perfectly over the cue (which Ronnie does) and he can drop it perfectly straight down then he can use it if he wants to, but why bother as it gains you nothing at all except that it allows that player to accelerate the cue faster because he is using two muscles to do it.

When people think of the elbow drop on delivery they are thinking about the classic one like Joe Davis or Tony Knowles (and apparently Nic Barrow) and that is 4" or more, and that is very tough to coordinate.

I watched the final of that tournament and Ronnie's elbow may drop 1/2" on some of his shots, but not very many and Trump's, Robertson's and Dott's don't move at all, so I agree with you there but for most amateur players in the world it's not really a good idea to copy Ronnie's style as it's his own. The one time when Ronnie did use the classic elbow drop was on the final black when he had won the match and he hit it a ton, dropped his elbow about 4" or so and missed the shot completely. Perhaps even he can't control it perfectly either.

My coaching advice to regular players is to avoid dropping the elbow as it causes more problems than it's worth and as in my own case it will always creep up in the delivery and cause the butt of the cue to go off-line before the strike. I believe it's not a very good idea at all for the majority of players.

If a player believes he will play better if he copies Ronnie's or even Trump's style ('to drop or not to drop, that is the question') then they are free to do so of course but I think what Trump does is better for the regular player as he will be more accurate with no loss of power if he uses his backswing length correctly.

Terry

[Csmith]

I've come to notice this too. And I've also noticed that I can still generate a lot of cue power without dropping my elbow on delivery. That said, it's important to ensure ones back arm is at 90 degrees at the address position as if you are a little forward of 90, it can cause problems in the follow through when keeping the elbow still. I struggled with this for a while before I marked my grip and bridge hand position on my cue.

[DeanH]

I never drop the elbow (meaning the final cue delivery elbow drop).
Tried it at a coaching session once and after a few tries my right elbow was starting to ache, so stopped it.
History - many years ago I had tennis elbow in both elbows and even after years of treatment and years of pain-free they are succeptable to aching.
So elbow drop is not for everyone

[Terry Davidson]

j6uk:

OK then...you tell me which muscle or muscle group controls the drop of the elbow. I contend (after checking with the Physio I live with) that it can only be the shoulder muscle (not sure of the correct name of it) but the upper arm has to drop too.

There are many players out there who do drop their elbow during the delivery and that is not a good thing for accuracy.

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

I am not sure if there is a little bit of confusion here, as i have seen Sidd say dropping the shoulder to drop the elbow, this is not correct at all and not what Terry has said, there are many muscles in the shoulder, some have different jobs, so its easily possible for some to allow the arm to drop, while others keep the shoulder still and stable, but i am not one hundred percent convinced that the shoulder is involved, as there is a group of muscles in the upper arm(the kind of fat bit that joins the arm to the shoulder, above the bicep and triceps) and these all have different jobs, some lift the arm to a certain height, then others take over, so i could be convinced that its these that allow the elbow drop, but as i say im not sure. Apart from that i dont like a big elbow drop, a little natural one yes, but not a deliberate effort to drop it.

[tedisbill]

Terry:

I never ever drop my elbow.

I'm forever nagging my brother about it. He's trying to improve and he started doing it because Ronnie does it.

[humperdingle]

j6uk:

OK then...you tell me which muscle or muscle group controls the drop of the elbow. I contend (after checking with the Physio I live with) that it can only be the shoulder muscle (not sure of the correct name of it) but the upper arm has to drop too.

There are many players out there who do drop their elbow during the delivery and that is not a good thing for accuracy.

Terry

There are ways to test, obviously, but perhaps not with equipment available to us mortals. Perhaps Mr Barrow could invest in such muscle-sensing tools . But i'd also be interested to hear j6uk's explanation.

[alabadi]

its impossible to drop the elbow if the shoulder joint is rigid and fixed, so the only time the elbow drops from an elevated position is when the shoulder joint is lowered, the tendons such as the traverse Humeral ligament connects to the bicep tendon the supraspinatus outer shoulder assists with lifting the arm above the head, Infraspinatus and the teres minor - twist the arm out sideways from the body.

the Humerus (the upper arm bone) The "ball" is the head of the and the "socket" is the glenoid part of the shoulder blade (scapula) and connects to the 3 heads of deltoid muscles.

lowering the arm moves the ball, the rotator cuff in the shoulder socket which will shift the shoulder position.

I have come to learn all these muscle and tendon terms because of years of going to physios because of shoulder problems I have

[cyberheater]

So this all begs the question...on all but the most powerful shots why drop the elbow at all on the delivery?

You always raise such interesting questions Terry. I will once again modify my technique and try to stop dropping the elbow. The less movement of any body part. The less that can go wrong.

[vmax4steve]

To play the stroke from the shoulder, getting the whole of the arm moving and involved in the stroke, rather than just from the elbow joint, is not a good idea as this means that one has to co-ordinate both the shoulder, elbow and wrist joints as well as the fingers of the hand in order to keep the arm, and therefore the cue, on a straight line.
This means having perfectly straight alignment of shoulder, forearm, upper arm, hand and therefore cue on the line of the shot. Very difficult to achieve this perfectly straight alignment and even more difficult to keep it all straight when playing a stroke, especially one with power.

The best way to play is from the elbow only, and what I have found over the years is to practise the opening and closing of the fingers of the grip hand to coincide perfectly with the forward and backward movement of the cue so that it feels like only the hand itself is moving the cue, not the arm. Difficult to understand this feeling if you don't have it, but getting this feeling does take all tension out of the arm and makes for a more relaxed and accurate stroke.

Just rest the butt of the cue in the fingers of the hand, feel the weight of it, and open and close the hand in tandem with moving the arm. Once you get this right you will get a feel for your cue and become more at one with it.
The stroke ends on the complete closing of the fingers, about a balls width past the cue ball, and then only the momentum of the stroke carries the cue past this point. Gentle shots will carry very little momentum and power shots will carry a lot, sometimes enough for the upper arm to drop from the shoulder but as long as this is after the cue ball has been struck it's OK.

[itsnoteasy]

I don't see how a ball and socket joint like this does not move independently from the shoulder, that's the point in a ball and socket it gives maximum movement, surely your arm can move without the shoulder joint shifting, not sure which muscles do it though.
I'm with VMax on how you should cue.

[Byrom]

GO to 4.30

[ace man]

I get a lot of pain if I play several power shots in a row trying to keep the elbow from dropping on delivery. To the point I could not play the day after. It is very uncomfortable.