Cueing at the Speed of Sound

[vmax4steve]

Vmax - have you ever emailed World Snooker to see if they would consider or even try out your idea re using the SC balls?

I emailed them once asking what balls they endorse, I got no reply. They were in a quandry at the time of the Aramith buy out, super crystalate was no longer being manufactured, they probaly carried on with old sets until they got as bit worn and then had to go for the phenolic resins made by Aramith with little choice in the matter.
They have been fiddling with the playing conditions ever since to try to make them work, and they still don't, but Aramith is now a sponsor, money talks and keeps people quiet.

[mikeyd100]

I emailed them once asking what balls they endorse, I got no reply. They were in a quandry at the time of the Aramith buy out, super crystalate was no longer being manufactured, they probaly carried on with old sets until they got as bit worn and then had to go for the phenolic resins made by Aramith with little choice in the matter.
They have been fiddling with the playing conditions ever since to try to make them work, and they still don't, but Aramith is now a sponsor, money talks and keeps people quiet.

Fair enough, at least you have tried. Yes no doubt money, sponsorship will be a huge factor too.
Give em another try maybe with some detail of your experiences ?

[Cannonball]

Fair enough, at least you have tried. Yes no doubt money, sponsorship will be a huge factor too.
Give em another try maybe with some detail of your experiences ?

I've played with SCs and they're crap compared to TCs. Yes, you do get less kicks but there's no travel in the material and the pack doesn't open as well. If you want to watch 80s snooker with breaks of 30 and frames that are endless, yes, get the SCs out, they'll help take us back to the boring days. Now if you want to watch the players rip the pack open, hit maxis, screw back amazing distances and play positive snooker, TCs/1Gs all the way. No-one I know, no-one wants SCs back and some of the people I know have beaten Ronnie and that's the proof of the pudding. And no, they don't get any free balls or sponsorship off Aramith. Name a single pro or good county player who wants them back. V-Max may, but he's like a local leaguer, not the same kettle of fish.

But yeah, the takeover was about creating a Euro monopoly which has turned into a world monopoly as they make Brunswick balls as well. Luckily, the best ball won, which is not always the case with monopolies, it's usually higher prices and worse products.

IWAN SIMONIS, world leader in the manufacture of billiard cloth, and ARAMITH, world leader in the manufacture of ARAMITH billiard balls, WSP Textiles Limited, England and its STRACHAN™ and PLAYNE™ are all part of the same group; Peltzer & fils. They also make tennis balls, 9-pin bowling balls, industrial balls, etc, etc. So the chances of anyone else supplying balls to WS in the near future is zero. This probably also means that we won't see the superior Hainsworth Precision Pro cloth on WS tables, that does not require heaters (= less kicks) unless Star and Hainsworth can hook up.

[mikeyd100]

I've played with SCs and they're crap compared to TCs. Yes, you do get less kicks but there's no travel in the material and the pack doesn't open as well. If you want to watch 80s snooker with breaks of 30 and frames that are endless, yes, get the SCs out, they'll help take us back to the boring days. Now if you want to watch the players rip the pack open, hit maxis, screw back amazing distances and play positive snooker, TCs/1Gs all the way. No-one I know, no-one wants SCs back and some of the people I know have beaten Ronnie and that's the proof of the pudding. And no, they don't get any free balls or sponsorship off Aramith. Name a single pro or good county player who wants them back. V-Max may, but he's like a local leaguer, not the same kettle of fish.

But yeah, the takeover was about creating a Euro monopoly which has turned into a world monopoly as they make Brunswick balls as well. Luckily, the best ball won, which is not always the case with monopolies, it's usually higher prices and worse products.

IWAN SIMONIS, world leader in the manufacture of billiard cloth, and ARAMITH, world leader in the manufacture of ARAMITH billiard balls, WSP Textiles Limited, England and its STRACHAN™ and PLAYNE™ are all part of the same group; Peltzer & fils. They also make tennis balls, 9-pin bowling balls, industrial balls, etc, etc. So the chances of anyone else supplying balls to WS in the near future is zero. This probably also means that we won't see the superior Hainsworth Precision Pro cloth on WS tables, that does not require heaters (= less kicks) unless Star and Hainsworth can hook up.

I guess its a debate then for you two guys re the balls.
From my own experiences I rarely play on the premium clothed tables and hardly get kicks - and thats with regular use of different balls... Aramith Premier, TC and 1G's.
Cloth has got something to say about it I'd say, plus at times bad cueing can also cause a kick.

[vmax4steve]

I've played with SCs and they're crap compared to TCs. Yes, you do get less kicks but there's no travel in the material and the pack doesn't open as well.

The reason the balls split so well these days is nothing to do with phenolic resin being superior, it's all about the thinner cloths and table heaters. Super crystalate balls with modern table conditions would be a revelation for the pros as they work even better when warmed up. If you'd played with them you would know that so stop telling porkies.

No one under the age of forty knows about super crystalate balls, they think this bad contact problem has always been with us, most over the age of forty don't even know the balls were changed or the reason why. When our club bought a new set of TC's for the match table they blamed the cloth because the balls clunked all the time with bad contacts, had the table reclothed and still the same, had the cloth stretched and still the same. I take my SC's to the same table every sunday lunchtime for a practise and everything's hunky dory, but no ones listening.
Aramith have us by the short and curlies and World Snooker know it but are powerless until someone comes up with a better material as Aramith will sit on the super crystalate patent as they have done for the last thirty years.
Well I say powerless but all they have to do is grow a pair and tell Aramith that they will no longer use their product, I have a set of SuperPro 2 and 1/16 inch pool balls that are made of nylon resin, and they don't kick either.

[Cannonball]

Balls at my old club, SCs, single table fitted with a 6811T. I use my TCs at my new club, on a 6811T, both cloths fitted by the same person, my mate. Both rooms around the same temperature and both tables, antique billiards tables. The TC balls open up much better. The SCs kick less. Direct comparison made by me. These are facts dear boy; of course you have to have the cue power off the black to find these things out . The reason? Well, the clue is in the names of the materials; phenolic resin, super crystallate. Yes, they have different names because they're different plastics and they have different mechanical properties. They also have an ancient set of crystallates at the old club, even worse than SCs. The SCs don't squeek on contact the way TCs do a tiny bit, and hence less kicks. The SCs actually make a better sound and that's another clue why they kick less. But give me the travel of TCs anyday, they are joy to break-build and pot with. I've played with every ball out there including poly, nylon, ivory and nothing comes close to phenolic resin for travel, spin, cannons and staying on a straight line.

Enjoy :biggrin-new:

[Catch 22]

I only really get kicks when my TCs are newly cleaned ....once I've handled them with my bare hands for a bit they don't kick much at all

[vmax4steve]

Balls at my old club, SCs, single table fitted with a 6811T. I use my TCs at my new club, on a 6811T, both cloths fitted by the same person, my mate. Both rooms around the same temperature and both tables, antique billiards tables. The TC balls open up much better. The SCs kick less. Direct comparison made by me. These are facts dear boy; of course you have to have the cue power off the black to find these things out . The reason? Well, the clue is in the names of the materials; phenolic resin, super crystallate. Yes, they have different names because they're different plastics and they have different mechanical properties. They also have an ancient set of crystallates at the old club, even worse than SCs. The SCs don't squeek on contact the way TCs do a tiny bit, and hence less kicks. The SCs actually make a better sound and that's another clue why they kick less. But give me the travel of TCs anyday, they are joy to break-build and pot with. I've played with every ball out there including poly, nylon, ivory and nothing comes close to phenolic resin for travel, spin, cannons and staying on a straight line.

Enjoy :biggrin-new:

Could be true I suppose, they do travel well, except when you get a bad contact or kick, then they stop, They do spin except when you get a bad contact or kick, then they stop spinning. You can play cannons with them, except that when you get a bad contact or kick you miss the cannon or cannon something else, and as they're round they do stay on a straight line except when you get a bad contact or kick and then they can end up anywhere.

Ivories as well LOL, if I said I'd been to the moon, you've been there twice.

[Cannonball]

Could be true I suppose, they do travel well, except when you get a bad contact or kick, then they stop, They do spin except when you get a bad contact or kick, then they stop spinning. You can play cannons with them, except that when you get a bad contact or kick you miss the cannon or cannon something else, and as they're round they do stay on a straight line except when you get a bad contact or kick and then they can end up anywhere.

Ivories as well LOL, if I said I'd been to the moon, you've been there twice.

I've joined a lot of clubs, never like to depend on just one club, there's always a muppet who crops up now and again. Can't be bothered arguing anymore, just go somewhere else for a bit and swerve em. This has educated me on tables, balls, cloths, fitters, cues, etc. Currently, I play on an old snooker table/6811T in one club, probably an antique, and B&W antique billiards table with 3.25" pockets/6811T at another. But SCs I've seen plenty of, ivories just a bit and of course crystallates as well. My choice balls are a polka dot 1G CB and a set of TCs. I actually prefer my TCs to my 1G set. Don't ask me why but I do. (Note to self: this should be a future thread, it will amuse and benefit members greatly)

[vmax4steve]

With your bullsh1t attitude I'm sure you've had to move on quite a lot and have developed a taste for hospital food.

Here's a certain Alex Higgins playing some snooker using super crystalate balls, he seems to be able to get some good reaction out of them and all with a good nap on the cloth and no table heaters. Watched the Crucible Classics series the BBC showed during the recent WSC, no kicks, no endless replacing of balls, some great shots, some big breaks, tight matches and excellent commentary.
What's not to like ?

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

What complete and utter tosh. Where do you get all this bunkum from MB, you surely don't think it all up on your own, I would guess from Aramith's sales blog, desperately trying to come up with excuses for why their product doesn't work.
You haven't the experience with SC balls, "they do kick less but don't travel as well" what on earth does that mean ? Would Dramamine help ?
Jimmy White was screwing SC balls back for a laugh in the 80's, not as reactive my arse.

It's a fact that Saluc invented phenolic resin, needed a sales outlet for it and decided to make biliard balls, bought out the Composite Billiard Ball Company that made SC balls, stopped their production and foisted their inferior product upon us. It's been kicks and bad contacts ever since with every man and his dog making up excuses for, and trying to find the reasons why it's happening.
It didn't happen before PR balls came to be used, the odd kick here and there due to chalk and dirt on the balls. The PR balls kick when clean, kick when dirty, kick when cold, kick when warm, and if you're talking about sonics, you can hear the difference.

When SC's contact there is a clear crisp click, when PR's contact the click is noticeably duller, clunk with a bad contact and thud when kicking. I know, I use three different sets of balls on the match table in our club, the club set of TC's, my own set of Aramith SC's which are in fact a superior more closely weighted set of PR's, and a set of genuine SC's that I bought from ebay recently.

The old SC's are better in every respect, and Ive just got them out of their box and measured them with my digital calipers, all are the required 2 & 1/16 inch despite being thirty years old.

cue ball is 140.4 grammes
yellow is 141.1
green is 140.8
brown is 141.4
blue is 143.5
pink is 141.0
black is 141.3
reds are 143.3, 142.5, 143.0, 142.5, 142.6, 143.0, 142.5, 142.2, 142.9, 142.7, 143.2, 142.9, 143.1, 142.7 & 142.6.

All nice and shiny, no chips, virtually kick free snooker for £27 inc delivery.

All shiny and chrome.

That's nothing, i bought my pro cup snooker balls for 25 quid delivered. Mind you, they kicked like crazy the one and only time i used them, and i left them somewhere, so VFM perhaps not so great as yours.

But answer me this, Steven. I have pro cup balls for American pool (3 sets, including old Brunswick centennials, which are the same compound but different manufacturer IIRC), one for snooker and one for E8B. All five sets are made from the sane phenolic resin. I get virtually no kicks from the E8B or American pool sets - if your SC theory is correct, how can this be? Surely the kick ratio would be exactly the same for all 3 ball sets, yet it is nowhere near.

Incidentally, my theory on why the snooker balls i have (had) kicked so badly when i used them was smudges picked up on OBs from hitting the leather at the back of the pockets. They were covered with them by the end of the session.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

The main reason behind all this cue ball bouncing isn't bad cue actions, these slo mo's are films of the worlds best pro players, they all have great cue actions. The balls bounce because of the thinner cloths, they must have thinner cloths because the phenolic resin balls have too much friction between them on contact, and a good nap increases the resistance between the balls, thus increasing the friction.
These balls work very badly on club cloths, badly on tournament standard thinner napped cloths, and are irregular on the NO:10 cloths as well. The slightest bit of moisture in the air and it's kick city arizona and all the pros moan and bitch about it.

Ronnie gets as many kicks and bad contacts as anyone else, but he and a few others simply accept it and play on.

Good to have you back MB, but you're barking up the wrong tree as usual. Get yourself a set of old super crystalates, polish them up and get back to me.

I am sold on the clean cueing = fewer kicks theory, and think ronnie gets noticeably fewer kicks than most other players.

I think something that gets overlooked when a player perceives a kick is unintentional side he puts on the ball - if the measles ball were introduced, a player could immediately see they'd butchered the shot, not had a bad contact. They cannot see this without it, so immediately shriek "kick!". They are simply getting throw/gearing effects, which explains why the OB appears to straighten up after contact.

Regardless, cue like Ronnie and you needn't fear kicks - whatever their cause.

[Catch 22]

Ronnie gets tons of kick ...he just doesn't make a show of it and gets on with it

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

If you remember Physics at O or GCSE, there is the examination of constructive and destructive interference. Constructive interference leads to a crisp shot where power is effortless and a sweet crisp sound; energy has been transferred cleanly. Destructive interference from JVC's 'brass hammer' shot leads to a lot of vibration, a different sound. Sometimes, we'll say, that sounded good and it did because it was struck cleanly (usually with an open grip). Balls that are struck cleanly vibrate less and kick the OB less and make it jump less. Snooker is really a form of ballistics and we all know what happens to a bullet when it's been fired from a gun that hasn't been rifled well and kept clean and oiled; it flies badly, loses momentum and will miss the target. Hitting a ball really well to elicit that crisp sound is down to a more open grip and timing. These are qualities of the top cueists. We say that was a cracking shot not because the balls were split in half.

Premieres: why of why did Aramith design these balls? Yes, made from the same phenolic resin as all their balls but only 128g, too light (less material packed into the mould), they bounce all over the place. You can do a lot with the white ball to begin with but then it slows down a lot as it doesn't carry the same momentum to overcome cloth and air friction. No need for them in any club; TCs can be bought 2nd hand for the same money and polished a bit. TCs also last longer.

Super crystalates; hmm, probably not even 2 1/16th official size by now, barely 2", over 30 years since they stopped being made, worn down, polished, chipped. They do kick less but they don't travel as well, they're not as reactive, SC isn't as good as PR on that score. Overall, PR trumps them.

Aramith have several grades of ball - premieres, premium (?) and super aramith pro, in american pool terminology. They most certainly aren't all the same compound. You only have to look at how chipped the cheaper balls get to know that, whereas the higher grade super aramith pros are pretty indestructible.

As ever, AZB has chapter and verse on all things billiards related and there have been many good threads on the history of billiard ball evolution over the years. The differences between them are still on aramith's website, or were last time i checked.

And did you know they routinely recycle imperfect balls? Crack open one of the cheaper sets and you may find a fully formed smaller ball inside, complete with patterns and number. True story.

[Hello, Mr Big Shot]

Ronnie gets tons of kick ...he just doesn't make a show of it and gets on with it

Players who are always at the table will get kicks. Regardless, i disagree with you about how many he gets - he seems to get fewer than most to me.