Another Free Ball query

[Delphi]

Sorry to be an as****e about this Dean but...let's say on the breakoff my opponent completely miss hits the cluster of reds, they remain in a perfect triangle, the pink is still in front of the top of the triangle of reds, in this case my opponent made a foul and there is no single red on the table that i can hit both sides off...so this situation is a free ball?

[DeanH]

don't worry

you do not say where the cue-ball comes to rest, so some scenarios:
1. from where the cue-ball comes to rest, if completely behind a colour and every Red is snookered - Free Ball. [I think this is what you mean above)
2. from where the cue-ball comes to rest, if not behind a colour, check EACH Red individually if snookered; if any single Red is NOT snookered then NO Free Ball, if all Reds are snookered then Free Ball.
3. Cue-ball In Hand (as it went in to a pocket ); from the D then there wont be a Free-Ball, because the two outer-most Reds in the Triangle can by hit by the cue-ball from at least one place in the D on both extremes. Image every other Red was removed from the triangle but those two outer-most Reds left, both can be hit on its OWN extreme edges. No Snooker on at least one Red, no free ball.



Each Red must be considered on its own, as if it is the only Red on the table; if any read is NOT snookered, there is no Free Ball on all of the Reds.
Of course the snookering ball in each case could be the same colour ball, as well as it could be different colour balls.
If all reds are snookered - Free Ball.

Delphi, did you read the link I posted earlier?
post #3

[Delphi]

don't worry

1. from where the cue-ball comes to rest, if completely behind a colour and every Red is snookered - Free Ball. [I think this is what you mean above)

In my post above, we play together, i break off and don't hit any ball, the white comes back up and stops at the level of the blue, you are not snookered on the triangle of reds, you can hit left and right of the triangle of reds, but there is not a single red where you can hit both sides off, in your logic above this would be a free ball?
But in your later explained it's not hmm i think i have to re read everything now.

[DeanH]

as mentioned (2)
you have to consider each Red on it's own.
So from where the cue-ball came to rest you consider EACH Red individually whether the cue-ball can hit both extreme edges of THAT Red.
Imagine the other Reds are not there.
If any Red is not snookered (disregarding any other red) so it can be hit on its extreme edges - NO Free Ball.
If ALL Reds are snookered - Free Ball.

[bluenose1940]

I think I have mentioned the following topic to you but as a reminder, go to this link for great info on if you have a free ball, and the following link "and what you can can not do
https://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/bo...f-you-have-one

I have been trying to open the images in DeanH's link but for some reason none of them will open. Is anyone else having a similar problem. Does anyone know if the images are available anywhere else please?

[DeanH]

I have been trying to open the images in DeanH's link but for some reason none of them will open. Is anyone else having a similar problem. Does anyone know if the images are available anywhere else please?

ah no, it seems the hack has destroyed the images link
let me see what I can do here....

[DeanH]

here are the images referenced in the linked "Free-Ball thread"

[bluenose1940]

I think I have mentioned the following topic to you but as a reminder, go to this link for great info on if you have a free ball, and the following link "and what you can can not do
https://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/bo...f-you-have-one

Hello again DeanH, sorry to trouble you again with this 'free ball' thingy. i have got my head around most of the scenarios shown in your link but, for the life of me I cannot get to grips with the one that covers the second part of attachment 3. The author does actually say "it may take some convincing that this is no free ball" and he's right there! There is a line drawn through the cue ball and the red (the perpendicular one) and then, there is the line that is at 90 degrees to this (the horizontal one) and, to me, the extreme points of the red are where this horizontal line passes through the red and therefore become impossible to hit.
If the cue ball was a further two feet or more away from the red I would automatically assess this as a 'free ball' because the Brown is obstructing one side of the red and the Blue the other, which I thought would have been the case however close the balls are to each other.

I'm sure that you will tell me where I'm going wrong.

[DeanH]

I think I understand what you are meaning; it is the "extreme edges" definition that get confused the most.
The extreme edges are NOT the diameter of the object ball;
but the point that the cue ball can contact the object ball in a straight line and the closer the cue ball is to the object ball these points come further to the "front" of the object ball towards the cue ball, so the "extreme edges" move depending on the distance between the balls.

IF the "extreme edge" meant the "diameter" points perpendicular to the line draw from the centre of the cue ball to the centre of the object ball then practically every shot being checked would be a Free Ball because it would be impossible to hit those points because the body of the object ball itself would be in the way!

In part 2 Attachment 3, as you say as the distance increases then yes the scenario would be a Free Ball, where at this close distance it is not as the "extreme edges" points of contact moves with distance and the colours get in the way, where they are not at this close distance.

[itsnoteasy]

Hello again DeanH, sorry to trouble you again with this 'free ball' thingy. i have got my head around most of the scenarios shown in your link but, for the life of me I cannot get to grips with the one that covers the second part of attachment 3. The author does actually say "it may take some convincing that this is no free ball" and he's right there! There is a line drawn through the cue ball and the red (the perpendicular one) and then, there is the line that is at 90 degrees to this (the horizontal one) and, to me, the extreme points of the red are where this horizontal line passes through the red and therefore become impossible to hit.
If the cue ball was a further two feet or more away from the red I would automatically assess this as a 'free ball' because the Brown is obstructing one side of the red and the Blue the other, which I thought would have been the case however close the balls are to each other.

I'm sure that you will tell me where I'm going wrong.

It's not a free ball because the extremities of the red are what you can hit from where the cue ball is. Sure if it was two foot back the extremities would be more of the red so a free ball but if it was an inch further forward the extremities would be less. It's all based on where you can hit the ob from where the cab is situated.
sorry I see Dean answered as I was typing.

[bluenose1940]

Thanks chaps, I understand now.. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I do think though that I would have difficulty in convincing any of my fellow club members and so I have printed off the images from the link and of your most recent explanations. This will help enormously with dispelling any doubts should such a scenario arise at our club.

[Bunny]

Hi,
I've looked for an answer to this but can't find one anywhere. In the top scenario of picture 4, put a yellow on the cushion half way between the white & red. As stated in Statman's original post, it's not a free ball because the jaw is the closest obstruction on the path from white to red. Now if you gradually move the white ball diagonally away from the pocket, at what point does the obstruction change from being the jaw of the pocket to being the yellow ball, and hence a free ball is given?

[DeanH]

Hi,
I've looked for an answer to this but can't find one anywhere. In the top scenario of picture 4, put a yellow on the cushion half way between the white & red. As stated in Statman's original post, it's not a free ball because the jaw is the closest obstruction on the path from white to red. Now if you gradually move the white ball diagonally away from the pocket, at what point does the obstruction change from being the jaw of the pocket to being the yellow ball, and hence a free ball is given?

as per attachment 4 above - it changes as soon as the cushion "jaw" is no longer between the cue ball and the ball on (Red) - that would be as soon as the cue ball edge (on the attachment - the bottom edge) is just beyond being parallel with the cushion face - the flat face not the curve of the "jaw".

[Bunny]

as per attachment 4 above - it changes as soon as the cushion "jaw" is no longer between the cue ball and the ball on (Red) - that would be as soon as the cue ball edge (on the attachment - the bottom edge) is just beyond being parallel with the cushion face - the flat face not the curve of the "jaw".

Thanks DeanH, I think I understand your explanation, so would it be correct to say that the "jaw" is no longer between the cue ball and the ball on (red) as soon as the cue ball can hit the ball on (red) full in the face?

[DeanH]

Thanks DeanH, I think I understand your explanation, so would it be correct to say that the "jaw" is no longer between the cue ball and the ball on (red) as soon as the cue ball can hit the ball on (red) full in the face?

In this situation I would say so, but do not hang onto this "definition" as it wont apply in some case