Rules !

[djcj147]

can any 1 confirm the rules on this -

other night in my league game i was 7 behind on the last black when my opponant went to pot it missed and went in off the black so the scores was now level the black was left over the hole so i pick the white ball up placed it in the d to pot the final black with the team decided it was a respot and tossed a coin
my 1st instance was the last black was still live because we was level at this point so no need to respot but the reg respotted and the lad potted the last black
to win

[Souwester]

The first pot or foul normally ends the game... *EXCEPT* when as a result of doing so the scores are then level (as in your case). If the scores are level, then the black is spotted, and the cue ball is played from the D. The players toss a coin to decide *who has the choice* of whether to play first or second.

[Souwester]

Might I ask, if you thought that the black didn't need to be respotted because the scores were level, under what circumstances do you think the black *IS* respotted?

[The Statman]

Might I ask, if you thought that the black didn't need to be respotted because the scores were level, under what circumstances do you think the black *IS* respotted?

I think it confuses a LOT of people, because when the final black is fouled by the player 7 in front, it "looks" as if it should still be in play.

When the player 7 behind pots it, there is no next ball to go for, whereas in the above scenario there is still an object ball on the table. In its own way, it's kind of strange that there is a ball not finally potted and yet the frame is deemed to be tied.

[AndrewB]

Why is there the rule that a foul on the black ends the frame?

[jrc750]

Why is there the rule that a foul on the black ends the frame?

Because otherwise the game could go on forever !!!!

[DawRef]

Just to throw in a bit more confusion, in an aggregate scores match, it is 'legal' for frames to end with the scores level!! The same rule applies that the last pot of foul on the final black ends the frame, but unless the aggregate scores are level (at the end of the final frame) then the final black of the frame is NOT respotted.
This has only happened to me once. Also, in this case, the final 2 players of the final frame play the re-spotted black.

[djcj147]

souwester i don't understand you mate / i thought why does the b;ack need respotting becasue its only level board

[Souwester]

souwester i don't understand you mate / i thought why does the b;ack need respotting becasue its only level board

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at.

The rules say that the black will be respotted if, after the first foul or potting of the black results in the scores being level. That is, *regardless* of whether the black was potted legally, pocketed in conjunction with another foul being committed (eh cue ball going in -of after pocketing the black) or simply because another foul was committed not involving the black (eg failing to hit the black altogether). The black will always be placed on its spot: you are not given the option to play the black from where it is on the table if a foul has been committed which levels the scores.

[AndrewB]

Because otherwise the game could go on forever !!!!

I can see that if a foul on the black doesn't end a frame it could make frames last longer, but would it really make a significant difference? OK, the winning player would now have to pot the final black if his opponent refuses to concede - is that very different from having to pot the final pink?

[The Statman]

I can see that if a foul on the black doesn't end a frame it could make frames last longer, but would it really make a significant difference? OK, the winning player would now have to pot the final black if his opponent refuses to concede - is that very different from having to pot the final pink?

Yeah but it's always been like that. It's to stop one player who's 8 or more behind from carrying on for "snookers" - i.e. hoping for a foul from his opponent before the black goes down.

The Rules prevent this from happening by allowing only one score on the final black, be it pot or foul.

After that, if it's level there's a respot because the 'main' frame is at an end. You could otherwise go on all night and I've seen two guys, unaware of the rule, go on for 30 minutes where one of them has been 2 up and fouled, then carried on at 9 behind and his opponent has gone in-off so there's back to 2 in it ... repeat as required until another £3 has gone on the light and/or both players have lost the will to live and/or it's closing time, whichever is the soonest!

[AndrewB]

I assume it was originally regarded as "unsporting" to play on when (say) 8 behind with only the black left - you're waiting for your opponent to make a mistake - and this became enshrined in the rules. (Would have been interesting if they'd felt it was "unsporting" to carry on when 14 behind with pink and black left, since again you're waiting for a mistake from your opponent!)

Is there any thorough record of early snooker rules and how they changed over the years? The CueSport book has quite a nice summary by John Street.

[The Statman]

I assume it was originally regarded as "unsporting" to play on when (say) 8 behind with only the black left - you're waiting for your opponent to make a mistake - and this became enshrined in the rules. (Would have been interesting if they'd felt it was "unsporting" to carry on when 14 behind with pink and black left, since again you're waiting for a mistake from your opponent!)

Is there any thorough record of early snooker rules and how they changed over the years? The CueSport book has quite a nice summary by John Street.

Yeah but at least with two balls left you can realistically play for snookers!

I don't think there is any proper record of the major rule changes that have come in over the years, unfortunately. Some of them are fairly easy to look up but only really piecemeal from various books.

The Rules were formalised, having been subject to local variations, in 1919. The re-spotted black itself was established in the early 1920s. The free-ball rule replaced the previous (and it seems strange now) rule that if snookered after a foul, the intervening ball could be lifted! (although the free ball when it first came in, when playing from the 'D' was judged only from the brown spot). It was still only a 1 point foul for going in-off a red, until the mid-20s when the minimum 4-point foul was introduced.

The touching ball rule came in in 1927, while in 1934 it became illegal to snooker behind a free ball. This may perhaps be worthy of a thread of its own where people can input bits and pieces and perhaps we can get some sort of timeline going for all the rules!

I'll be told off if I get yet another thread going in a complete tangent from the original question!

[AndrewB]

Incidentally, I note that http://www.snookergames.co.uk/hisgame5.html gives a description (from 1896) of the predecessor game "Snooker Pool", and makes it quite clear that "snookering" your opponent, far from being regarded as unsporting (as I suggested it could have been back then), was a "great source of amusement".