2 misses & a miss-cue

[Billy]

So you can see the ball, you've missed twice and you get the dreaded warning. If you miss-cue on your third attempt (and fail to hit the ball on) is it a foul or the frame over?

The only reason I ask this, is because when a player is addressing the cueball, accidentally feathers it and calls the foul on himself, the referee doesn't call a miss... or do they?

[coomsey76]

I reckon it would definitely frame over, because regardless of how you've struck the cue ball you have failed to hit the ball on.....

[Billy]

OK, so another scenario. You've missed twice, you're given the warning and on your third attempt your sleeve touches a ball you're bridging over.

A foul is called, but then what? Frame over? If not frame over then obviously your opponent would simply put you back in, but are you still on your warning at that point?

[coomsey76]

That's definitely one for the refs......

But I would say the frame wouldn't be over because the cue ball hadn't been struck, so the strikers turn would then over because of the foul...... Then your opponent puts you back in, therefore you wouldn't be on your final warning because it is a completely different stroke.

But I also could be wrong...

[Billy]

That's definitely one for the refs......

But I would say the frame wouldn't be over because the cue ball hadn't been struck, so the strikers turn would then over because of the foul...... Then your opponent puts you back in, therefore you wouldn't be on your final warning because it is a completely different stroke.

But I also could be wrong...

That's what I wondered. Maybe it's one of those anomalies where an unfair advantage could be gained, presuming you are, in fact, correct.

[coomsey76]

Indeed It would have been very similar to this situation Ronnie was in when he was playing Higgins in the 2008 WC.....

[Billy]

Indeed It would have been very similar to this situation Ronnie was in when he was playing Higgins in the 2008 WC.....

Of course! I'd genuinely forgotten about that. I wouldn't mind but it was me that posted the clip. If I remember correctly the ruling was changed because of it.

However, I think the difference with that situation was that Ronnie was snookered, so the three miss rule didn't apply.

[DeanH]

OK, so another scenario. You've missed twice, you're given the warning and on your third attempt your sleeve touches a ball you're bridging over.

A foul is called, but then what? Frame over? If not frame over then obviously your opponent would simply put you back in, but are you still on your warning at that point?

this situation is covered in the rules:
14(d) After the cue-ball has been replaced under this Rule, and the striker fouls any ball, including the cue-ball while preparing to play a stroke, a miss will not be called if a stroke has not been played. In this case the appropriate penalty will be imposed and the ball on shall be the same as prior to the last stroke made, namely:
(i) any Red, where Red was the ball on;
(ii) the colour on, where all Reds were off the table; or
(iii) a colour of the striker’s choice, where the ball on was a colour after a Red had been potted;
and
(iv) the next player may elect to play the stroke himself or ask the offender to play again from the position left; or
(v) the next player may ask the referee to replace all balls moved to their original position and have the offender play again from there; and
(vi) if the above situation arises during a sequence of miss calls, any warning concerning the possible awarding of the frame to his opponent shall remain in effect.

so in the question asked, my reading is that (vi) shows that the foul of touching a ball with the sleeve would not be a Foul&Miss (strike not made) but just a foul, and if the offender is asked to continue then the warning would still be valid and he would have to make a legal strike else forfeit the frame.

[DeanH]

So you can see the ball, you've missed twice and you get the dreaded warning. If you miss-cue on your third attempt (and fail to hit the ball on) is it a foul or the frame over?

The only reason I ask this, is because when a player is addressing the cueball, accidentally feathers it and calls the foul on himself, the referee doesn't call a miss... or do they?

this would be forfeit of frame as a strike has been made - however badly

[Billy]

Thanks, Dean, nice find. The rule section you posted does seem to answer my second scenario.

[coomsey76]

this situation is covered in the rules:
14(d) After the cue-ball has been replaced under this Rule, and the striker fouls any ball, including the cue-ball while preparing to play a stroke, a miss will not be called if a stroke has not been played. In this case the appropriate penalty will be imposed and the ball on shall be the same as prior to the last stroke made, namely:
(i) any Red, where Red was the ball on;
(ii) the colour on, where all Reds were off the table; or
(iii) a colour of the striker’s choice, where the ball on was a colour after a Red had been potted;
and
(iv) the next player may elect to play the stroke himself or ask the offender to play again from the position left; or
(v) the next player may ask the referee to replace all balls moved to their original position and have the offender play again from there; and
(vi) if the above situation arises during a sequence of miss calls, any warning concerning the possible awarding of the frame to his opponent shall remain in effect.

so in the question asked, my reading is that (vi) shows that the foul of touching a ball with the sleeve would not be a Foul&Miss (strike not made) but just a foul, and if the offender is asked to continue then the warning would still be valid and he would have to make a legal strike else forfeit the frame.

Good work Dean, I'm going to call you the master rule finder from now on.....

You learn something new everyday!!

[DeanH]

I have always found it odd that in all other aspects of snooker that you must be able to hit both sides of the object ball but with F&M it is only full ball (central) contact.