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  • WPBSA Rules meeting

    On 27th June a rules meeting was held by the WPBSA rules committee and the following Q and A has been added to the SRA explanatory notes. Hopefully it will help many of you with some rules. Answers to Q2 and Q3 are enquiries that I made to the rules committee, and I am glad to have some clear advice.

    Q The referee declares "Touching ball". The player comes to the table and says the balls are not touching. After many attempts the referee is not able to get the balls touching as he had previously declared. What to do next?
    A If the referee has declared "Touching ball" the player must play away from this, as if it was a touching ball. It was agreed that this is covered in the rule book Section 3.8 (b) page 20.

    Q If the non-striker unscrews his cue, or removes his tie, or starts to clear his personal items from the table in the closing stages of a match, is it to be considered that he is conceding?
    A Yes - dependant on the circumstances, the referees decision is final. Covered in the rule book, section 4.1.Page 28

    Q In the deciding frame of a match, player A pots the final red which puts him 29 ahead with only 27 remaining. Player B offers his hand in concession which is accepted. However, the cue ball is still moving and enters a pocket. What is the decision?
    A The match has already been conceded so the concession would stand. Covered in Rule Book Section 4.5 Page 29.
    (a good lesson here to all of us - wait until the completion of the shot and balls are at a standstill before giving up)

    There were several more scenarios that were discussed but generally were self explanatory. The concession rule has often come into question in matches and is particularly difficult for people refereeing on league nights where they are not qualified referees. I am quite clear in my mind what I see as a concession and the magic sentence "The referees decision is final" and "In the interests of fair play" will always accept the above situations as concession.

    Any interesting thoughts on the above?

  • #2
    very good to see, cheers for the post.
    question - SRA explanatory notes where are these (on the internet)?
    are these the same as the EASB best practice notes or will those be updated as well?
    cheers

    oh forgot to ask, what else was discussed, you mention "self-explanatory" but could you just list a summary of what was discussed.
    Up the TSF! :snooker:

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi. Tommy,
      The touching ball scenario in item 1 is a correct and logical answer to the situation particularly where conditions are at top standards. The situation often arises however where on older less cared for cloths particularly around worn spot areas the ball can roll back from a stationary position to either touch or not touch a ball on or prevent or an accurate respot. Under these conditions as you say "the referees decision " must be accepted but also a good referee should be prepared to re-postion the ball slightly in order that the original stationary position is achieved. Equally it is perfectly possible for a ball to move on a slack cloth just by the strength of the players bridge hand biting the cloth. After discussion with both players no foul should be called in these situations. This problem regularly can occur at the highest level as the degree of stretch in 'Strachan 10' is so sensitive and prevalent after a few hour play.

      Dean. SRA is the Sussex Referees association and there large explanatory hand book is adopted as the referees bible. International ref. Derek Budde is the man to talk to. Try a Google. F.

      Comment


      • #4
        Q and A from a WPBSA Rules Meeting held on 27th June 2013.doc

        Here's the full transcript of the Q&A session.

        Comment


        • #5
          Dean, the SRA notes are only available to buy, but as Frank said, Derek Budde is the man to speak to.

          Comment


          • #6
            thanks for that Frank
            so I found SRA under Brighton & Hove Snooker but cannot find the "SRA Rules Book with Explanatory Notes" themselves, are these not online? So contact Derek for a copy then, yes?
            cheers

            edit - Thanks SnkrRef, will do
            Up the TSF! :snooker:

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally Posted by SnkrRef View Post
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]14428[/ATTACH]

              Here's the full transcript of the Q&A session.
              many thanks
              Up the TSF! :snooker:

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Frank
                Thanks for the reply. Yes I think this question came about for just that reason that spots sometimes get a dent in them and the ball can roll off, and of course as you say the slack cloths. Not a problem I have yet come across, but its good to have the knowledge how to deal with it.

                DeanH SnkrRef has kindly put the link up for you to see the Q/A session, so I hope it is helpful.

                The SRA explanatory notes are on the right hand page of the manual opposite the rules. The manual is size A4 (methinks) and I believe comes at a cost of 15 pounds. I am regularly in touch with Derek, so if I can help in anyway please don't hesitate to get in touch. My next B&H and Sussex RA meetings are on Sept 20th I believe, and I can check with Derek that he has some in stock

                Comment


                • #9
                  yep very useful
                  I have sent a meesgae via the Contact Us, but will keep your offer in mind
                  Up the TSF! :snooker:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have the SRA book with the notes, but haven't had an update for quite a few years. I also have John Street's book, which I think is now back in print. Though unless I'm wrong, it does not cover the recent rules upgrade. However, it is still a very good reference book.
                    You are only the best on the day you win.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally Posted by DawRef View Post
                      I have the SRA book with the notes, but haven't had an update for quite a few years. I also have John Street's book, which I think is now back in print. Though unless I'm wrong, it does not cover the recent rules upgrade. However, it is still a very good reference book.
                      I had an email from Derek yesterday with the Q&A notes, plus the amended pages for the SRA manual. You say you haven't had any SRA updates for a few years: (a) did you register your details to receive them, and (b) if you've got the old version, they never updated it for the 2011 rules as they had to completely re-write it (and you have to buy a fresh copy!).

                      The Rook/Street book is good also, but this was last updated around the time of John's death, which must be about 4 or 5 years ago? It was certainly well before the 2011 rule book came out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I find the answer given to question 11 rather problematic. Does it mean then, that if a player who has already received one warning for ungentlemanly conduct, concedes a frame when there is still enough points available for him to win, that the referee is unable to fulfill his duties by docking him a frame, because there is not a live frame in progress? Or should he wait for the next one to start and then award that one? If he cannot, then it seems that the player will simply get away with this.
                        Last edited by t.lavery55; 25 August 2013, 11:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally Posted by tommygunner1309 View Post
                          Q If the non-striker unscrews his cue, or removes his tie, or starts to clear his personal items from the table in the closing stages of a match, is it to be considered that he is conceding?
                          A Yes - dependant on the circumstances, the referees decision is final. Covered in the rule book, section 4.1.Page 28
                          What is meant by 'dependant on the circumstances'? It must be referring to circumstances under which the above should be interpreted as a concession, as it is not dependant on the circumstances that the referee's decision is final, it is always final.

                          I assume it means that it must be reasonable to take the player's actions as a concession, for example because he is a long way behind in the frame.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally Posted by tommygunner1309 View Post
                            On 27th June a rules meeting was held by the WPBSA rules committee and the following Q and A has been added to the SRA explanatory notes. Hopefully it will help many of you with some rules. Answers to Q2 and Q3 are enquiries that I made to the rules committee, and I am glad to have some clear advice.

                            Q If the non-striker unscrews his cue, or removes his tie, or starts to clear his personal items from the table in the closing stages of a match, is it to be considered that he is conceding?
                            A Yes - dependant on the circumstances, the referees decision is final. Covered in the rule book, section 4.1.Page 28
                            Originally Posted by t.lavery55 View Post
                            What is meant by 'dependant on the circumstances'? It must be referring to circumstances under which the above should be interpreted as a concession, as it is not dependant on the circumstances that the referee's decision is final, it is always final.
                            well, I've quoted below section 4.1 from the rules published on the WPBSA website ... I can't see a publication date on the PDF but the web page says 1 Oct 2011 ...

                            I guess unscrewing cue, removing tie etc falls under 4.1 (a) (iii) "any other conduct by a Player which otherwise amounts to
                            ungentlemanly conduct" ...

                            but there's no "dependent on circumstances" and it is clearly "in the opinion of the referee" whether it constitutes ungentlemanly conduct or not ...

                            SECTION 4 THE PLAYERS
                            1. Conduct
                            (a) In the event of:
                            (i) a Player taking an abnormal amount of time over a stroke or the
                            selection of a stroke; or
                            (ii) any conduct by a Player which in the opinion of the referee is
                            wilfully or persistently unfair; or
                            (iii) any other conduct by a Player which otherwise amounts to
                            ungentlemanly conduct; or
                            (iv) refusing to continue a frame;
                            the referee shall either:
                            (v) warn the Player that in the event of any such further conduct the
                            frame will be awarded to his opponent; or
                            (vi) award the frame to his opponent; or
                            (vii) in the event that the conduct is sufficiently serious, award the
                            game to his opponent.
                            (b) If a referee has warned the Player under (v) above, in the event of any
                            further conduct as referred to above, the referee must either:
                            (i) award the frame to his opponent; or
                            (ii) in the event that the further conduct is sufficiently serious, award
                            the game to his opponent.
                            (c) If a referee has awarded a frame to a Player’s opponent pursuant to
                            the above provisions, in the event of any further conduct as referred
                            to above by the Player concerned, the referee must award the game
                            to the Player’s opponent.
                            (d) Any decision by a referee to award a frame and/or the game to a
                            Player’s opponent shall be final and shall not be subject to any
                            appeal.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The referee's decision is always final. However, there might be circumstances when, for example, undoing a cue isn't to be taken as a concession. The non-striker might be anticipating needing his longer butt, and unscrews his cue in readiness. Maybe I'm clutching at straws. I think in almost all circumstances, the actions described would be treated as a concession.

                              Comment

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