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  • sharkster63
    replied
    Originally posted by DeanH View Post
    Point one, he should not have allowed himself to be annoyed them, it will only ruin his focus and his game


    This is your description of the balls on the table and we cannot second guess any other balls' positions.
    But as Acesinc said, if there were reds near the Yellow then the referee was correct in asking. If we take your description as read, then I dont think the referee should have requested a declaration.


    The referee should have clearly repeated the nomination for all to hear.


    Correct action of the referee, Blue as nominated and was not the first ball contacted by the cue ball.


    What does this mean? Player A started arguing and a fight between the old and the young ensued?


    As you wrote it, the Referee was correct in awarding the penalty for Player A not hitting the nominated ball with the first contact with the cue ball.

    BUT... this sounds like a classic case of accumulative human errors and misjudgements (either by deliberate actions/inactions of the referee and Player B towards Player A) and Player A as well (allowing himself to get rattled and the sarcastic nomination). Also possibly the referee was not an experienced referee ("Please nominate" is not the correct statement by a referee) and maybe assumed that a verbal declaration is always required to nominate a Free Ball; it is not.
    Let's hope that all those involved have learnt some lessons from this situation.
    Dean, I agree, good breakdown, so how many kids do you have.. lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave Walton
    replied
    Originally posted by Hello, Mr Big Shot View Post
    Originally posted by Rane View Post
    This is really fine sportsmanship. Huge respect for McGill.
    Maybe this explains why jayson shaw didn't make it as a snooker player?

    https://youtu.be/7N11aJZPeyY
    2nd time in the match Earl called the wrong ball, considering the first time was given as a foul the second should of aswell, Earl clearly calls the 2 ball, doesn't matter how obvious it is when it's a call shot game. Earl is and always has been a cheat. Listen to his excuse, he admits he called the 2 but the ref didn't hear it, he's a tossa

    Leave a comment:


  • Hello, Mr Big Shot
    replied
    Originally posted by Rane View Post
    This is really fine sportsmanship. Huge respect for McGill.
    Maybe this explains why jayson shaw didn't make it as a snooker player?

    https://youtu.be/7N11aJZPeyY

    Leave a comment:


  • bluenose1940
    replied
    Originally posted by Shockerz View Post
    A thank you or acknowledgement for the gesture wouldn't have gone a miss?
    A really first class gesture by McGill but, you took the words right out of my mouth Shockerz, if he can't say thank you in English, then a simple bow would have sufficed

    Leave a comment:


  • Shockerz
    replied
    Originally posted by DeanH View Post
    spoke "Pink" but obvious at Blue; this was discussed extensively at the time on another thread.
    Even McGill temporarily came back onto TSF (he was a member but stopped logging in) as he thought someone had called him a cheat (not from what I recall) but I think all said superb sportsmanship by McGill

    A thank you or acknowledgement for the gesture wouldn't have gone a miss?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rane
    replied
    Originally posted by DeanH View Post
    spoke "Pink" but obvious at Blue; this was discussed extensively at the time on another thread.
    Even McGill temporarily came back onto TSF (he was a member but stopped logging in) as he thought someone had called him a cheat (not from what I recall) but I think all said superb sportsmanship by McGill

    This is really fine sportsmanship. Huge respect for McGill.

    Leave a comment:


  • acesinc
    replied
    Thanks for the follow up to the story. As Tournament Director, you acted exactly correctly in supporting your Referee. It is not a Rule that the Referee must repeat the declaration, just a good habit to follow so like Cliff Thorburn in my anecdote, Player A really had no recourse and no one but himself to blame.

    Leave a comment:


  • wemba
    replied
    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
    Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.

    The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
    Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.

    Who was in the right?
    I was Tournament Director at this match.

    Player A was a top-class player who had previously won several amateur titles and had made many competition century breaks. He had a strong personality and was well liked by other players.
    The referee was a very experienced A-grade referee in his 60's but was a stickler for the rules.

    This incident came before me as Tournament Director. I supported the decision of the referee.
    A few weeks later there were calls for the resignations of myself and the referee, although nothing came of it.

    As others have said, the referee should have confirmed the call by repeating "Blue ball".

    Leave a comment:


  • acesinc
    replied
    Originally posted by Londonlad147 View Post
    You misquote me or take my comment out of context. I meant that 'please nominate' was the wrong call: it should be 'please declare'.

    You're right that if there were reds near the yellow then a request for a verbal declaration was in order. However, if the reds were close to the yellow there very possibly wouldn't have been a free ball in the first place.
    No disrespect meant at all. I admire your knowledge and strive to emulate. I am just saying that, given the information we were given, we really cannot make a determination whether the ref should or should not have asked for a declaration/"nomination". (I also admit that before reading your post, I had not really considered the nuanced difference between "nomination" and "declaration"....I will try to remember that in future.) The fact remains that, right or wrong, if the Referee asks for a verbal nomination, or more properly, a declaration, then the player is certainly obliged to answer, and sarcasm is unacceptable in a formal environment.

    Originally posted by Londonlad147 View Post
    I became a referee in 1990, and was always told referees should repeat a striker's verbal declaration of colour, so it's hardly a modern practice!
    Ahhh! But do we not still refer to Stephen Hendry as having the most Championships in the "modern era"? I would submit that even though the traditional process of pasteurizing milk was begun as early as the 1800's, it can still be considered a "modern practice". My point was that the story from Cliff Thorburn was from 1984; maybe the refs were in the habit of repeating declarations then, maybe they weren't. I don't know. But even though Cliff went to the extreme of appealing to the Tournament Director, he really had no recourse. Either Cliff did not make his intention clear, or else he wasn't paying attention close enough to notice the Referee did NOT repeat his declaration. It was his fault either way. I honestly don't know if repeating the declaration was standard practice or not back in 1984. That is right about the time that I began watching the game on telly and I seem to recall that in general, the ref would repeat the declaration, but maybe it was not every ref every time. I suspect that incidents such as this is what caused it to become standard practice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Londonlad147
    replied
    Originally posted by acesinc View Post
    Unfortunately, I do have to disagree with Londonlad about a particular point. You said, "Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colours anywhere near it.", however, that in itself is not the full story. Even if there are no other colours near Yellow, the Referee is not necessarily wrong to ask. There may have been one or more available Reds very near the Yellow that could have been a viable Ball On, perhaps a possible "simultaneous hit" type situation. Just because a player is awarded a Free Ball does not mean that he must play at a Free Ball. If the Referee is uncertain whether Player A is playing at Free Ball Yellow or natural ball Red, it is perfectly legitimate for the Referee to require a declaration.
    You misquote me or take my comment out of context. I meant that 'please nominate' was the wrong call: it should be 'please declare'.

    You're right that if there were reds near the yellow then a request foir a verbal declaration was in order. However, if the reds were close to the yellow there very possibly wouldn't have been a free ball in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Londonlad147
    replied
    Originally posted by acesinc View Post
    You will notice in televised events that the modern practice among referees is to repeat the declaration made by a player loud and clear so that there can be no doubt that the Referee heard what the Player called. This only applies to verbal nominations, not non-verbal methods.
    I became a referee in 1990, and was always told referees should repeat a striker's verbal declaration of colour, so it's hardly a modern practice!

    Leave a comment:


  • DeanH
    replied
    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
    Point one, he should not have allowed himself to be annoyed them, it will only ruin his focus and his game

    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.
    This is your description of the balls on the table and we cannot second guess any other balls' positions.
    But as Acesinc said, if there were reds near the Yellow then the referee was correct in asking. If we take your description as read, then I dont think the referee should have requested a declaration.

    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
    The referee should have clearly repeated the nomination for all to hear.

    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul".
    Correct action of the referee, Blue as nominated and was not the first ball contacted by the cue ball.

    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.".
    What does this mean? Player A started arguing and a fight between the old and the young ensued?

    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    Who was in the right?
    As you wrote it, the Referee was correct in awarding the penalty for Player A not hitting the nominated ball with the first contact with the cue ball.

    BUT... this sounds like a classic case of accumulative human errors and misjudgements (either by deliberate actions/inactions of the referee and Player B towards Player A) and Player A as well (allowing himself to get rattled and the sarcastic nomination). Also possibly the referee was not an experienced referee ("Please nominate" is not the correct statement by a referee) and maybe assumed that a verbal declaration is always required to nominate a Free Ball; it is not.
    Let's hope that all those involved have learnt some lessons from this situation.

    Leave a comment:


  • acesinc
    replied
    Originally posted by wemba View Post
    At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
    Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.

    The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
    Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.

    Who was in the right?
    I just finished reading "Playing for Keeps", 1987, by Cliff Thorburn with numerous anecdotes from his time on tour in the 70's and 80's. One story relayed his ongoing well known row with Alex Higgins and is directly related to your query. In a match with Alex in the 1984 UK Championship, Cliff potted Red but found the White fully snookered in the pack of Reds without a clear shot. Cliff says he declared Green and made contact (off the cushion of course) but the Referee called foul and gave seven saying that he never heard a declaration at all. Cliff protested saying he declared Green and Referee John Smyth asked Alex who said Cliff definitely hadn't said anything. There were spectators who said that Cliff had made the call and Cliff even brought in the Tournament Director, but ultimately, Referee John Smyth's call stood as he simply had not heard the declaration.

    So currently, this type of situation is very easily avoided. You will notice in televised events that the modern practice among referees is to repeat the declaration made by a player loud and clear so that there can be no doubt that the Referee heard what the Player called. This only applies to verbal nominations, not non-verbal methods. So in the case you stated, sarcastically or not, nominating Blue, the Referee SHOULD have repeated "Blue!" and the player should have made the correction at that time. If the Referee verbally asks for a declaration, rightfully or not, the player is obliged to give a verbal nomination per the Rules, Section 2., Rule 12. (b).

    Unfortunately, I do have to disagree with Londonlad about a particular point. You said, "Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colours anywhere near it.", however, that in itself is not the full story. Even if there are no other colours near Yellow, the Referee is not necessarily wrong to ask. There may have been one or more available Reds very near the Yellow that could have been a viable Ball On, perhaps a possible "simultaneous hit" type situation. Just because a player is awarded a Free Ball does not mean that he must play at a Free Ball. If the Referee is uncertain whether Player A is playing at Free Ball Yellow or natural ball Red, it is perfectly legitimate for the Referee to require a declaration.


    So to answer your specific question, "Who was in the right?", the answer is probably "Neither of them." Or perhaps the Referee, if he did in fact repeat the declaration, and Player A played a foolhardy shot to the Yellow anyway.
    Last edited by acesinc; 29 July 2017, 01:44 PM.

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  • Londonlad147
    replied
    The referee was certainly wrong to ask 'please nominate'! A player may nominate by indication (pointing with hand, finger, cue, direction of cueing) or by declaration (verbal statement). He is required to declare when asked by the referee or when snookered. It follows that a referee, if unsure of what ball may be indicated, or if the cue ball is touching a colour after a red, or touching a colour after a free ball call, must ask for a declaration.

    If a player declares a colour then if he fails to first hit that declared colour the it is a foul, and technically the referee would have been right to call a foul. However, if the referee believes that another ball is being indicated, then I would ask the player to repeat his declaration, which might just make the player think about whether he's declared the right colour.

    It is a common misconception that a player must declare a free ball if he chooses one, both with players and many less experienced referees. He doesn't: he simply needs to indicate to the satisfaction of the referee. The referee was probably wrong to ask for a nomination [sic] (thinking he was asking for a verbal declaration) in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • wemba
    replied
    At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
    Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.

    The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
    Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.

    Who was in the right?

    Leave a comment:

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