Originally Posted by DeanH
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Originally Posted by Hello, Mr Big Shot View PostOriginally Posted by Rane View PostThis is really fine sportsmanship. Huge respect for McGill.
https://youtu.be/7N11aJZPeyY
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Originally Posted by Rane View PostThis is really fine sportsmanship. Huge respect for McGill.
https://youtu.be/7N11aJZPeyY
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Originally Posted by Shockerz View PostA thank you or acknowledgement for the gesture wouldn't have gone a miss?
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Originally Posted by DeanH View Postspoke "Pink" but obvious at Blue; this was discussed extensively at the time on another thread.
Even McGill temporarily came back onto TSF (he was a member but stopped logging in) as he thought someone had called him a cheat (not from what I recall) but I think all said superb sportsmanship by McGill
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Originally Posted by DeanH View Postspoke "Pink" but obvious at Blue; this was discussed extensively at the time on another thread.
Even McGill temporarily came back onto TSF (he was a member but stopped logging in) as he thought someone had called him a cheat (not from what I recall) but I think all said superb sportsmanship by McGill
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Thanks for the follow up to the story. As Tournament Director, you acted exactly correctly in supporting your Referee. It is not a Rule that the Referee must repeat the declaration, just a good habit to follow so like Cliff Thorburn in my anecdote, Player A really had no recourse and no one but himself to blame.
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Originally Posted by wemba View PostAt an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.
The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.
Who was in the right?
Player A was a top-class player who had previously won several amateur titles and had made many competition century breaks. He had a strong personality and was well liked by other players.
The referee was a very experienced A-grade referee in his 60's but was a stickler for the rules.
This incident came before me as Tournament Director. I supported the decision of the referee.
A few weeks later there were calls for the resignations of myself and the referee, although nothing came of it.
As others have said, the referee should have confirmed the call by repeating "Blue ball".
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Originally Posted by Londonlad147 View PostYou misquote me or take my comment out of context. I meant that 'please nominate' was the wrong call: it should be 'please declare'.
You're right that if there were reds near the yellow then a request for a verbal declaration was in order. However, if the reds were close to the yellow there very possibly wouldn't have been a free ball in the first place.
Originally Posted by Londonlad147 View PostI became a referee in 1990, and was always told referees should repeat a striker's verbal declaration of colour, so it's hardly a modern practice!
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Originally Posted by acesinc View PostUnfortunately, I do have to disagree with Londonlad about a particular point. You said, "Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colours anywhere near it.", however, that in itself is not the full story. Even if there are no other colours near Yellow, the Referee is not necessarily wrong to ask. There may have been one or more available Reds very near the Yellow that could have been a viable Ball On, perhaps a possible "simultaneous hit" type situation. Just because a player is awarded a Free Ball does not mean that he must play at a Free Ball. If the Referee is uncertain whether Player A is playing at Free Ball Yellow or natural ball Red, it is perfectly legitimate for the Referee to require a declaration.
You're right that if there were reds near the yellow then a request foir a verbal declaration was in order. However, if the reds were close to the yellow there very possibly wouldn't have been a free ball in the first place.
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Originally Posted by acesinc View PostYou will notice in televised events that the modern practice among referees is to repeat the declaration made by a player loud and clear so that there can be no doubt that the Referee heard what the Player called. This only applies to verbal nominations, not non-verbal methods.
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Originally Posted by wemba View PostAt an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
Originally Posted by wemba View PostPlayer A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.
But as Acesinc said, if there were reds near the Yellow then the referee was correct in asking. If we take your description as read, then I dont think the referee should have requested a declaration.
Originally Posted by wemba View PostThe referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
Originally Posted by wemba View PostPlayer A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul".
Originally Posted by wemba View PostPlayer A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.".
Originally Posted by wemba View PostWho was in the right?
BUT... this sounds like a classic case of accumulative human errors and misjudgements (either by deliberate actions/inactions of the referee and Player B towards Player A) and Player A as well (allowing himself to get rattled and the sarcastic nomination). Also possibly the referee was not an experienced referee ("Please nominate" is not the correct statement by a referee) and maybe assumed that a verbal declaration is always required to nominate a Free Ball; it is not.
Let's hope that all those involved have learnt some lessons from this situation.
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Originally Posted by wemba View PostAt an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.
The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.
Who was in the right?
So currently, this type of situation is very easily avoided. You will notice in televised events that the modern practice among referees is to repeat the declaration made by a player loud and clear so that there can be no doubt that the Referee heard what the Player called. This only applies to verbal nominations, not non-verbal methods. So in the case you stated, sarcastically or not, nominating Blue, the Referee SHOULD have repeated "Blue!" and the player should have made the correction at that time. If the Referee verbally asks for a declaration, rightfully or not, the player is obliged to give a verbal nomination per the Rules, Section 2., Rule 12. (b).
Unfortunately, I do have to disagree with Londonlad about a particular point. You said, "Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colours anywhere near it.", however, that in itself is not the full story. Even if there are no other colours near Yellow, the Referee is not necessarily wrong to ask. There may have been one or more available Reds very near the Yellow that could have been a viable Ball On, perhaps a possible "simultaneous hit" type situation. Just because a player is awarded a Free Ball does not mean that he must play at a Free Ball. If the Referee is uncertain whether Player A is playing at Free Ball Yellow or natural ball Red, it is perfectly legitimate for the Referee to require a declaration.
So to answer your specific question, "Who was in the right?", the answer is probably "Neither of them." Or perhaps the Referee, if he did in fact repeat the declaration, and Player A played a foolhardy shot to the Yellow anyway.Last edited by acesinc; 29 July 2017, 01:44 PM.
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The referee was certainly wrong to ask 'please nominate'! A player may nominate by indication (pointing with hand, finger, cue, direction of cueing) or by declaration (verbal statement). He is required to declare when asked by the referee or when snookered. It follows that a referee, if unsure of what ball may be indicated, or if the cue ball is touching a colour after a red, or touching a colour after a free ball call, must ask for a declaration.
If a player declares a colour then if he fails to first hit that declared colour the it is a foul, and technically the referee would have been right to call a foul. However, if the referee believes that another ball is being indicated, then I would ask the player to repeat his declaration, which might just make the player think about whether he's declared the right colour.
It is a common misconception that a player must declare a free ball if he chooses one, both with players and many less experienced referees. He doesn't: he simply needs to indicate to the satisfaction of the referee. The referee was probably wrong to ask for a nomination [sic] (thinking he was asking for a verbal declaration) in the first place.
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At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.
The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.
Who was in the right?
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