2019 Grand Prix

[Billy]

So that's deliberate now as well as missing the ball on...

First off, thanks for the clarification, @cueman. Now that you mention it I remember the O'Sullivan incident.

As for the miss ruling, I don't think it's there to stop players deliberately fouling, just to stop them gaining an advantage from a foul - deliberate or not.

[vmax]

Yes, correct call. They made change to the rule because of an incident with Ronnie a few years back where he was snookered on the colours and amongst the reds he was bridging over a ball. After a few failed attempts he claimed he had fouled with his bridge hand and the ref was unable to call miss. It perplexed his opponent at the time I think John Higgins and it was a big turning point in the frame.

So the rules have been changed to stop a player tactically gaining an advantage so a miss can still be called even if a player fouls by touching a ball with his hand or cue etc.

So that's deliberate now as well as missing the ball on, shame as I did this many times as a uk 8 ball player in order to get them to waste one of their two visits. Didn't always work as some just got down and tapped the ball twice again.

[vmax]

So Selby's average shot time is 29 seconds max this season, yet you say 25.7 seconds isn't particularly slow. Well that's only 4.3 seconds away from 30 which gets him on the slowest list.
Ronnie said it many years ago, "people don't know what's going on out there" and was told by world snooker to desist and with the help of Steve Peters has relented, but now they're on his side with the slow play gamesmanship that happens and Selby was one the worst offenders.

You can quote time stats all you like but when Selby takes two minutes to play a run of the mill safety and mucks about with do I or don't I need an extension/mini butt/rest and tries them all out, it's because of the state of the match, his own form and the form of his opponent, and gamesmanship is what he's doing. If he isn't doing it now because of the clampdown then great, but he's still taking over 25 seconds a shot average and that's painfully slow in my book, and if his opponents are as slow as he well that's probably because he's tied up a frame looking for a re-rack or got them in roll up snookers with umpteen misses played.

True I don't like his style of snooker, but when he's on form and his opponent isn't he flies so as far as I'm concerned it's deliberate.

[cueman]

In attempting to escape from a snooker, tight up behind the brown, Ally Carter fouled the brown with his cue in playing the shot. The ref called F&M and Judd had the balls replaced. Is this right, in that he fouled the brown when playing the shot?? Or was the miss called because he still played the shot?

Yes, correct call. They made change to the rule because of an incident with Ronnie a few years back where he was snookered on the colours and amongst the reds he was bridging over a ball. After a few failed attempts he claimed he had fouled with his bridge hand and the ref was unable to call miss. It perplexed his opponent at the time I think John Higgins and it was a big turning point in the frame.

So the rules have been changed to stop a player tactically gaining an advantage so a miss can still be called even if a player fouls by touching a ball with his hand or cue etc.

[Billy]

In attempting to escape from a snooker, tight up behind the brown, Ally Carter fouled the brown with his cue in playing the shot. The ref called F&M and Judd had the balls replaced. Is this right, in that he fouled the brown when playing the shot?? Or was the miss called because he still played the shot?

[JimMalone]

I don't really know what to say to that... I think Selby's reputation for mental strength is well deserved and has nothing at all to do with slow play. It has to do with him playing his best snooker under pressure and with his back to the wall. He has had more memorable comebacks than any other player I can remember in major matches, and his record in deciders is superb. Also, the guy has won 11 of his last 12 major ranking finals, and apart from playing Gary Wilson one time, every one of those was against world-class opposition. He delivers time and time again on the big stage. Whether he takes more toilet breaks than the average player is irrelevant, as is his alleged slow fitting of the extension. Mental strength and pace of play (and time wasting in general) are two separate issues. You can be mentally strong and reasonably fast, like John Higgins for example, or you can be mentally strong and slow, like Peter Ebdon was in his prime. On the other hand, you can just be slow, like Anthony Hamilton (and unlike Selby :wink. It is unrelated.



World Snooker published a list of all the players who have had at least one match with an average shot time of over 30 seconds this season. I think the most recent one is from December and includes 45 different players, but Mark Selby is not on it. In fact, the slowest match he has played all season has him at 29 seconds, in the final of the China Championship against Higgins (Higgins himself was 4 seconds slower in that match than his season average). He has had a faster AST than his opponent in 28 of his 40 matches, which means 70% of the time. On the 12 occasions where he has been the slower player his opponents were Ding Junhui, Hossein Vafaei, Yuan Sijun, Zhao Xintong, John Higgins, Ryan Day, Robert Milkins, Neil Robertson, Thepchaiya Un-Nooh, Ronnie O'Sullivan, and Judd Trump twice. His AST in just those 12 matches is 25.7 seconds by the way, so not particularly slow at all.

Unfortunately the AST stats are not widely available for matches prior to this season, so it's impossible to prove that Selby has never really stood out in any way in terms of his pace of play. There was no particular reason for him to speed up, because half the tour would have been sanctioned before he would have had anything to worry about. Also, there are only three matches from previous seasons involving the players he allegedly "fears" that have an average shot time listed. The SF of the World Grand Prix last season against Ding, 26.3 seconds, the World final against Ding in 2016, 28 seconds (Ding himself was at 27), and the 2016 UK final against O'Sullivan, 22 seconds. :wink: I also remember people going mental about Selby's perceived slow play and gamesmanship during the 2014 World final, but his average shot time at some point during frame 26 was revealed to be 26 seconds (he had two big breaks after that, so he almost certainly finished with an ever lower number), which just shows that some people who dislike him will say anything to try to discredit his achievements, even though their reasoning is anything but objective and certainly not based in reality. :wink:

Great post Odrl. I was just to reply to vmax's comment, but you've already summed up it so well and so I can spare time.

Only one point I'd add: Even if Selby would take longer it's totally indifferent to the topic and would not be gamesmanship at all. Because no: he isn't doing this on purpose. Some take longer for their shots, some don't. It's just the result that matters. And Selby in difficult situations likes to think longer about a shot. The same is true for some other players like John Higgins, Neil Robertson or Marco Fu.

[Billy]

That default walk-on music for the players is cheesier than a Welsh rarebit... with extra cheese!!

[jonny66]

Well said Odrl

[Odrl]

but people like you think playing really slowly, taking five minutes to fit your extension and constantly leaving the arena are digging deep and mental strength when it's really just gamesmanship designed to break the other blokes concentration.

I don't really know what to say to that... I think Selby's reputation for mental strength is well deserved and has nothing at all to do with slow play. It has to do with him playing his best snooker under pressure and with his back to the wall. He has had more memorable comebacks than any other player I can remember in major matches, and his record in deciders is superb. Also, the guy has won 11 of his last 12 major ranking finals, and apart from playing Gary Wilson one time, every one of those was against world-class opposition. He delivers time and time again on the big stage. Whether he takes more toilet breaks than the average player is irrelevant, as is his alleged slow fitting of the extension. Mental strength and pace of play (and time wasting in general) are two separate issues. You can be mentally strong and reasonably fast, like John Higgins for example, or you can be mentally strong and slow, like Peter Ebdon was in his prime. On the other hand, you can just be slow, like Anthony Hamilton (and unlike Selby :wink. It is unrelated.

Even so average stats include matches agaisnt those he doesn't fear, there will be no separate stats for his shot times against the likes of Ronnie, Ding, Trump and Fu whom he bored to distraction many times, and we've all seen it

World Snooker published a list of all the players who have had at least one match with an average shot time of over 30 seconds this season. I think the most recent one is from December and includes 45 different players, but Mark Selby is not on it. In fact, the slowest match he has played all season has him at 29 seconds, in the final of the China Championship against Higgins (Higgins himself was 4 seconds slower in that match than his season average). He has had a faster AST than his opponent in 28 of his 40 matches, which means 70% of the time. On the 12 occasions where he has been the slower player his opponents were Ding Junhui, Hossein Vafaei, Yuan Sijun, Zhao Xintong, John Higgins, Ryan Day, Robert Milkins, Neil Robertson, Thepchaiya Un-Nooh, Ronnie O'Sullivan, and Judd Trump twice. His AST in just those 12 matches is 25.7 seconds by the way, so not particularly slow at all.

Unfortunately the AST stats are not widely available for matches prior to this season, so it's impossible to prove that Selby has never really stood out in any way in terms of his pace of play. There was no particular reason for him to speed up, because half the tour would have been sanctioned before he would have had anything to worry about. Also, there are only three matches from previous seasons involving the players he allegedly "fears" that have an average shot time listed. The SF of the World Grand Prix last season against Ding, 26.3 seconds, the World final against Ding in 2016, 28 seconds (Ding himself was at 27), and the 2016 UK final against O'Sullivan, 22 seconds. :wink: I also remember people going mental about Selby's perceived slow play and gamesmanship during the 2014 World final, but his average shot time at some point during frame 26 was revealed to be 26 seconds (he had two big breaks after that, so he almost certainly finished with an ever lower number), which just shows that some people who dislike him will say anything to try to discredit his achievements, even though their reasoning is anything but objective and certainly not based in reality. :wink:

[vmax]

According to CueTracker, Mark Selby has an average shot time of 22.3 seconds this season, which is the same as Stephen Maguire and Jimmy White, and 0.1 seconds faster than John Higgins. Even when he played a little more slowly than he does now, he was nowhere near the kind of numbers the slowest players on the tour have, so he was never going to be "dealt with" in any way. He is just perceived as slower than he actually is by people who dislike him. :wink:

That's this season because Barry Hearn is cracking down on slow play.

Even so average stats include matches agaisnt those he doesn't fear, there will be no separate stats for his shot times against the likes of Ronnie, Ding, Trump and Fu whom he bored to distraction many times, and we've all seen it, but people like you think playing really slowly, taking five minutes to fit your extension and constantly leaving the arena are digging deep and mental strength when it's really just gamesmanship designed to break the other blokes concentration.

If you don't do it in practise then it's not really your natural game.

Trump did it last night, left the arena for longer than he should have and the ref should have had a word. IMO if they don't need a leak then they shouldn't leave the arena at all, and no mid session intervals to speed it up a bit more.
I can play nine frames in two hours downing two pints of lager without going to the bog and I'm over 60 with all that entails.
Dying for one half way home though

[Mark187187]

Thought Hawkins played well this week. I often forget how good he can play, especially thinking back to his world championship final against Ronnie. With his record at the crucible over the last 5 years being among the best on the tour, he could be one to watch for getting to the latter rounds, especially with a lot of players struggling.

[Billy]

Maybe just me but I was a bit disappointed not to see Hawkins win it tonight. Good match though.

Hawkins style doesn't do it for me, so a good result as far as I'm concerned. There's a few players like this... they're just, I dunno, meh. Hawkins, Fu, Bingham, Wilson. Even Selby to an extent.

[trying]

Maybe just me but I was a bit disappointed not to see Hawkins win it tonight. Good match though.

[Billy]

I know the game was already won, but Trumps long plant down the side cushion was insane

Right-handed, too!

[Mark187187]

I know the game was already won, but Trumps long plant down the side cushion was insane