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  • Mmmmmmmmmmm not overly convinced that the PC brigade haven't gone a bit too far. I mean, If I say "I don't agree with homosexuals having the right to a wedding ceremony" does that make me homophobic, or is it just my opinion for reasons of principle or because I feel it is morally wrong? I am after all putting a section of people in the frame. But is it just an opinion or is it homophobia. If the majority answer 'homophobia' then to my mind freedom of speech and having an opinion is dead in Britain. It is not enough to just label people opinionated, homophobic or sociopathic just because they have an opinion, for very good reason, that goes against the grain. I know a cab driver in Brighton who was very cross about Gay Pride parade. Immediately, he was labeled homophobic - the truth is, he was just cross because it affected his earnings on a day where he expected to make much more. The day we are not allowed and opinion for reasons we sincerely believe in, is going to be the saddest of sad days. (I still think Mark Allen us wrong in what he said, but only because of the wording he chose to use)

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    • Originally posted by tommygunner1309 View Post
      Mmmmmmmmmmm not overly convinced that the PC brigade haven't gone a bit too far. I mean, If I say "I don't agree with homosexuals having the right to a wedding ceremony" does that make me homophobic, or is it just my opinion for reasons of principle or because I feel it is morally wrong? I am after all putting a section of people in the frame. But is it just an opinion or is it homophobia. If the majority answer 'homophobia' then to my mind freedom of speech and having an opinion is dead in Britain. It is not enough to just label people opinionated, homophobic or sociopathic just because they have an opinion, for very good reason, that goes against the grain. I know a cab driver in Brighton who was very cross about Gay Pride parade. Immediately, he was labeled homophobic - the truth is, he was just cross because it affected his earnings on a day where he expected to make much more. The day we are not allowed and opinion for reasons we sincerely believe in, is going to be the saddest of sad days. (I still think Mark Allen us wrong in what he said, but only because of the wording he chose to use)
      Intent is everything, your example above is the perfect example of this.
      "Do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error"
      - Linus Pauling

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      • He just tweeted the following:

        @TheSnookerForum loving your thread on me! Very amusing reading!!!

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        • nrage - not quite sure I understand what you meant - intent is everything ?

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          • Originally posted by tommygunner1309 View Post
            nrage - not quite sure I understand what you meant - intent is everything ?
            A bit of a tenuous link there, sorry, lemme explain myself. Your cabbie was labeled as homophobic because he was cross about the Gay Pride parade. If the reason he was cross about it was the fact it was a gay pride parade then fair enough, but it wasn't, it was just the fact it was a parade - so clearly he wasn't homophobic.

            The same applies to other comments/opinions, and whether they are homophobic or racist etc. The important consideration isn't the opinion itself, nor whether it's true or not, but the intent/meaning/motivation for making the statement or sharing the opinion with someone. Racism is motivated by belief in inherent superiority or hatred and intolerance (according to the definition posted earlier) so two people could say the same thing, but for different reasons, and one would be racist while the other wasn't. The difference, was their intent on making the statement, what they were trying to achieve or prove by doing it.

            Intent is everything. If someone bumps into you in the supermarket you might be annoyed, but you'd hardly hold it against them if it was an accident i.e. they had no intention of doing it. But, if they're being a prat and doing it on purpose you'd rightly be a bit ticked off. Again, intent is everything.

            Intent is the difference between murder (intentional/planned) and manslaughter (unintentional/accidental).
            "Do unto others 20% better than you would expect them to do unto you, to correct for subjective error"
            - Linus Pauling

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            • nrage has hit the nail on the head.....intent is everything as far as racism goes but unfortunately we live in a world where the merest mention of race,colour,nationality etc and we are all on very thin ice.

              After a game of snooker me and a friend went to the chinese takeaway accross the road and before he ordered he rang his wife to see if she wanted anything.................."DO YOU WANT OUT TO EAT,AM AT THE CHINKY'S...........A SAID AM AT THE CHINKY'S DO YOU WANT OUT?"

              He said this at the top of his voice and i just hid in the corner as the place was full and i found it really embarrassing.........now this same person wouldn't harm a fly and would be the first person to stick up for somebody if they were being picked on i just think he is as daft as a brush and not racist.

              I also find the whole Chinese not admitting fouls thing quite interesting because spending a lot of time playing poker with Chinese people i noticed they never hold the door for you if you follow them into a building and they never say thanks if you hold the door for them,i also find it bizzarre how you could spend several hours sitting next to them chatting and the next day they will walk past you like they don't know you.....very strange but i suppose it's there culture.

              I would also like to add i am eating a Chicken Chow Mein as i type this so i am def not racist.
              It's hard to pot balls with a Chimpanzee tea party going on in your head

              Wibble

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              • Yes I agree that nrage has it dead right, and I agree that intent is everything. However, I would not suggest that your pal was a racist because he said he was at the 'chinky's', after all, it is something most of us grew up with and don't intend such remarks to be racist. I often call a welshman 'Taffy' or a Scot 'Jock' - and I know that there are people who would immediately jump on the racist bandwagon but I also know that a lot of welshmen are proud to call themselves Taf and the same with scots. I took the Sun to task one day (no, I don't buy it, it was on a train, and I needed a laugh) when they called someone racist because he had labeled a chap 'Paki'. Two pages further on it stated 'Brit injured in coach crash'. Its hard to get my head round this one. Surely, Brit is short for British or someone from Britain - so isn't 'Paki' short for Pakistan or a person from Pakistan. I have trouble separating these two abbreviations, but apparantly, a lot of others don't. They say 'calling a person Brit is ok' but calling a person Paki isn't. On these grounds isn't it fair to use both terms. Nrage will tell me this I know, but when I was in the Navy we worked with Aussie and NZ ships and we always called the NZ's Kiwis. Is that derogatory to someone from New Zealand. I don't think so - or I hope not - cos some of them were very large chaps and I am not. Seems to me that too many people pick and choose which is right and which is wrong, and it leaves us ordinary plebs (ooops another thread on that one) rather confused

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                • Originally posted by vmax4steve View Post
                  If Mark Allen had said "all these chinks are cheats", then it would have indeed been a racist remark, as he said it, in my mind anyway, it was his opinion of their culture that made them accept refereeing decisions rather than police themselves, put rather inarticulately that could be construed as racist. The chinese do after all live in a police state and getting one over on an authority figure is a little victory for such people and ingrained to be habit and part of the culture.
                  Maybe that's why so many south american footballers are divers, why so many spanish footballers are divers, why so many italian footballers are divers, why diving in football originated in Germany. See the political connection ?
                  Of course this could simply be coincidence and conjecture but not all cultures are the same and what is seen as natural behaviour in one is not condoned in others.

                  The snooker authorities need to explain exactly why there is a players contract in place that restricts freedom of speech.

                  Barry Hearn is bending over for his cut, that's the only reason he does what he does. He doesn't give a toss about snooker, or boxing, or darts just his cut. He's a businessman and that's what businessmen are like, fair doesn't enter into it.
                  firstly, the cheating allegations aren't the only ones which landed allen in hot water - he also made derogatory remarks about china, chinese people, chinese culture while he was playing at the 2012 haikou world open (the comments and link are in a post somewhere on this thread).

                  secondly, he is a contracted player of the snooker association. the clause in the players contract is a protection for the "brand" the snooker authorities own and are trying to develop and as such, all employees and contractors must adhere to the principles of the contract when they sign. it is no different than any other job or contractual relationship - i doubt a company would keep you in their employment or as a contractor if you go and slag off competitors, co-workers, others w/in the co. with remarks that have racial overtones and 0 supporting evidence; or slag off the company, the ceo and the events it hosts. yes, the worker against whom you made the remarks can also sue you for slander but that is a separate issue altogether.

                  from that perspective, his penalty can be considered lenient - conversely you can argue that barry hearn is bending over for allen (and not china) because snooker needs stars and he is obviously a star - if he was holding a 9 to 5 job or just a small time contractor and made similar remarks, more than likely he would be terminated immediately.
                  Last edited by arbitrage; 11 December 2012, 12:32 AM.

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                  • Snooker players are NOT employees i.e. they do NOT get a wage, they are NOT entitled to sick pay or holiday pay, they are NOT subject to working hours directives etc.

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                    • Originally posted by arbitrage View Post


                      - conversely you can argue that barry hearn is bending over for allen (and not china) because snooker needs stars and he is obviously a star immediately.
                      I doubt Mr Hearn would insult China. He knows how big the snooker game in China will become in future years, and he needs all the Chinese on board so that WS and snooker itself do not become isolated from this great country

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                      • Oh by the way - Hello Bernard - I am still alive (just) haha

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                        • Originally posted by tommygunner1309 View Post
                          Oh by the way - Hello Bernard - I am still alive (just) haha
                          may you live as long as the southern mountain and enjoy happiness as bountiful as the eastern sea

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                          • This thread should be removed.

                            Has very little to do with snooker. It's not like anything we post carries any weight with snooker's governing bodies.

                            Mark Allen is a cracking snooker player. I dont watch snooker to pay attention to anyone's political views.
                            I tune in to watch the very best play the game I love. Personality or no.

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                            • Originally posted by pottr View Post
                              This thread should be removed.

                              Has very little to do with snooker. It's not like anything we post carries any weight with snooker's governing bodies.

                              Mark Allen is a cracking snooker player. I dont watch snooker to pay attention to anyone's political views.
                              I tune in to watch the very best play the game I love. Personality or no.
                              A snooker forum should discuss all things good or bad what happens in the game.......apart from a few little personal insults i would say this thread has been very entertaining and at the very least the next time the red mist descends Mark will probably* count to 10 before he speaks.


                              *He is Irish so it's only a probably
                              It's hard to pot balls with a Chimpanzee tea party going on in your head

                              Wibble

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                              • Originally posted by pottr View Post
                                This thread should be removed.

                                Has very little to do with snooker. It's not like anything we post carries any weight with snooker's governing bodies.

                                Mark Allen is a cracking snooker player. I dont watch snooker to pay attention to anyone's political views.
                                I tune in to watch the very best play the game I love. Personality or no.
                                which is exactly why Mark Allen should engage his brain before he unzips his mouth ... I too would like to see Allen at the top of his game playing really tough matchplay snooker, which he is very good at ... not only is he distracting us, I feel he is distracting himself by wanting to be the "player's spokesman" and the "new bad boy of snooker" ....

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