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  • Can You Change Your Nominated Ball?

    Once you pot a red and nominate a color (i.e - green) can you then stand up, change color (i.e - nominate yellow) and then play the yellow ball?

    This happened earlier in a friendly. No balls were obscured and it was a matter of changing which angle to take in order to get round the table. Some were saying foul, some were saying you're allowed to change nomination before you take the shot.

  • #2
    Originally posted by JonathanWilson View Post
    Once you pot a red and nominate a color (i.e - green) can you then stand up, change color (i.e - nominate yellow) and then play the yellow ball?

    This happened earlier in a friendly. No balls were obscured and it was a matter of changing which angle to take in order to get round the table. Some were saying foul, some were saying you're allowed to change nomination before you take the shot.
    Yes, you can change your nominated color.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JonathanWilson View Post
      Once you pot a red and nominate a color (i.e - green) can you then stand up, change color (i.e - nominate yellow) and then play the yellow ball?

      This happened earlier in a friendly. No balls were obscured and it was a matter of changing which angle to take in order to get round the table. Some were saying foul, some were saying you're allowed to change nomination before you take the shot.
      as stated above, you can change your nomination at any time, as many times, before you take the shot
      Regardless of any "obscure" or not.
      Remember a nomination can be spoken or indicated physically with finger or cue, or purely the alignment of the cue, as long as it is clear to the referee (or other players if no referee) which ball is being nominated. I would say that if you have spoken a nomination I would voice the change - just to be sure.
      Up the TSF!

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with Dean, a nomination can be changed right up until you strike the ball, and yes, if you've verbally declared whiuch ball you're on (of you own volition or because the referee asked you to) the you should indeed verbally declare anyt change of ball.
        Duplicate of banned account deleted

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank you for the replies, especially to Dean for the much-appreciated in-depth one. I tried to frame the question in such a way to avoid biases — and it was I who changed nomination, only for my opponent to declare that I'm not allowed, even though I hadn't got in position to take the shot yet.

          Many thanks.

          Comment


          • #6
            Just to add a different slant on this, I remember seeing a YouTube video where a Chinese lad had said black to the ref( can't remember the exact colours) but obviously lined up for a long blue and potted it, the ref called foul, I think it was John Higgins who refused it and said to the ref, the Chinese lads English wasn't that good and it was obvious what he was going for. It's interesting to see that a verbal nomination out weighs a pointing your cue and obvious shot nomination.
            This is how you play darts ,MVG two nines in the same match!
            https://youtu.be/yqTGtwOpHu8

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            • #7
              Originally posted by itsnoteasy View Post
              Just to add a different slant on this, I remember seeing a YouTube video where a Chinese lad had said black to the ref( can't remember the exact colours) but obviously lined up for a long blue and potted it, the ref called foul, I think it was John Higgins who refused it and said to the ref, the Chinese lads English wasn't that good and it was obvious what he was going for. It's interesting to see that a verbal nomination out weighs a pointing your cue and obvious shot nomination.
              This was Anthony McGill vs. Yan Bingtao. Very fine sportsmanship by McGill.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JimMalone View Post
                This was Anthony McGill vs. Yan Bingtao. Very fine sportsmanship by McGill.
                spoke "Pink" but obvious at Blue; this was discussed extensively at the time on another thread.
                Even McGill temporarily came back onto TSF (he was a member but stopped logging in) as he thought someone had called him a cheat (not from what I recall) but I think all said superb sportsmanship by McGill

                Last edited by DeanH; 16th July 2017, 04:35 PM.
                Up the TSF!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wonderful sportmanship. Compare this to last year in the World Straight Pool tournament, the player accidentally nominated the 2 ball, but was clearly shooting at the 10 ball. The opponent called foul despite the fact that the 2 ball couldn't be struck unless they played off a cushion or two. The opponent then threw a temper tantrum when the call didn't go his way.

                  I love snooker.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Csmith View Post
                    Wonderful sportmanship. Compare this to last year in the World Straight Pool tournament, the player accidentally nominated the 2 ball, but was clearly shooting at the 10 ball. The opponent called foul despite the fact that the 2 ball couldn't be struck unless they played off a cushion or two. The opponent then threw a temper tantrum when the call didn't go his way.

                    I love snooker.
                    Remember that well .....but there is far more to that story . Said player who made the foul had already made the same foul once or twice previously in the match . Also he would leave the room and sit in a seperate area while his opponent was at the table (which was supposed to be against the rules ) . So I think his opponent decided to call him on his foul as a bit of revenge tbh .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JonathanWilson View Post
                      Once you pot a red and nominate a color (i.e - green) can you then stand up, change color (i.e - nominate yellow) and then play the yellow ball?

                      This happened earlier in a friendly. No balls were obscured and it was a matter of changing which angle to take in order to get round the table. Some were saying foul, some were saying you're allowed to change nomination before you take the shot.

                      There is a point that I may add to this conversation. Of course, all of the information you have received thus far is exactly correct as the TSF crowd is very knowledgeable on these matters. I would add though that I believe the reason that some in your group believed it foul to change nomination is because there are a few decision points that a player must make that cannot be retracted once a decision is made. So it is understandable that some people would lump this nomination into that same category. It really is quite easy and logical to differentiate however.

                      For instance, there is the matter of concession. If a player decides to concede a frame, that is it, frame is over, there is no going back. The player absolutely cannot change his mind and retract the concession. If a Player A fouls, then Player B decides to let Player A play again, the decision stands no matter what. If Player B spots a plant he didn't see earlier or whatever, he cannot retract his decision in order to play the shot himself.

                      On the other hand, as we have said, if a colour is nominated but not yet struck, the striker can flip-flop as much as he wants before finally settling on which colour is the actual ball on. In such a case, he should just be very clear about his final nomination before striking. Same thing in the case of a free ball. The player can change his mind about which free ball to play as much as he would like. He may even call a free ball, then change his mind and go back to striking the natural ball on and not play a free ball at all. (Do take note however that if a free ball had been nominated, then the player decides to play the natural ball on instead, then this intention MUST be made clear to the Referee/opponent as it is a foul to nominate a free ball, but then strike the natural ball first.) Another example would be Foul and a Miss where a colour had been nominated and the balls are reset. The player is allowed to change his decision as to which colour he will play at for the next attempt.

                      You may see a pattern in these examples. Basically, if a player makes a decision that has a direct effect on his opponent (concession, play again), then the decision is final, it cannot be changed after thinking it over some more. But if the decision is strictly for the striker himself...how he will approach his next shot, which colour he will play at, any point which has no direct effect on the opponent...then the striker can change his mind as much as he likes. He should be very clear as to his FINAL decision to avoid a foul call due to confusion as to that decision.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
                        Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.

                        The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
                        Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.

                        Who was in the right?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The referee was certainly wrong to ask 'please nominate'! A player may nominate by indication (pointing with hand, finger, cue, direction of cueing) or by declaration (verbal statement). He is required to declare when asked by the referee or when snookered. It follows that a referee, if unsure of what ball may be indicated, or if the cue ball is touching a colour after a red, or touching a colour after a free ball call, must ask for a declaration.

                          If a player declares a colour then if he fails to first hit that declared colour the it is a foul, and technically the referee would have been right to call a foul. However, if the referee believes that another ball is being indicated, then I would ask the player to repeat his declaration, which might just make the player think about whether he's declared the right colour.

                          It is a common misconception that a player must declare a free ball if he chooses one, both with players and many less experienced referees. He doesn't: he simply needs to indicate to the satisfaction of the referee. The referee was probably wrong to ask for a nomination [sic] (thinking he was asking for a verbal declaration) in the first place.
                          Duplicate of banned account deleted

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wemba View Post
                            At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
                            Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.

                            The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
                            Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul". Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.

                            Who was in the right?
                            I just finished reading "Playing for Keeps", 1987, by Cliff Thorburn with numerous anecdotes from his time on tour in the 70's and 80's. One story relayed his ongoing well known row with Alex Higgins and is directly related to your query. In a match with Alex in the 1984 UK Championship, Cliff potted Red but found the White fully snookered in the pack of Reds without a clear shot. Cliff says he declared Green and made contact (off the cushion of course) but the Referee called foul and gave seven saying that he never heard a declaration at all. Cliff protested saying he declared Green and Referee John Smyth asked Alex who said Cliff definitely hadn't said anything. There were spectators who said that Cliff had made the call and Cliff even brought in the Tournament Director, but ultimately, Referee John Smyth's call stood as he simply had not heard the declaration.

                            So currently, this type of situation is very easily avoided. You will notice in televised events that the modern practice among referees is to repeat the declaration made by a player loud and clear so that there can be no doubt that the Referee heard what the Player called. This only applies to verbal nominations, not non-verbal methods. So in the case you stated, sarcastically or not, nominating Blue, the Referee SHOULD have repeated "Blue!" and the player should have made the correction at that time. If the Referee verbally asks for a declaration, rightfully or not, the player is obliged to give a verbal nomination per the Rules, Section 2., Rule 12. (b).

                            Unfortunately, I do have to disagree with Londonlad about a particular point. You said, "Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colours anywhere near it.", however, that in itself is not the full story. Even if there are no other colours near Yellow, the Referee is not necessarily wrong to ask. There may have been one or more available Reds very near the Yellow that could have been a viable Ball On, perhaps a possible "simultaneous hit" type situation. Just because a player is awarded a Free Ball does not mean that he must play at a Free Ball. If the Referee is uncertain whether Player A is playing at Free Ball Yellow or natural ball Red, it is perfectly legitimate for the Referee to require a declaration.


                            So to answer your specific question, "Who was in the right?", the answer is probably "Neither of them." Or perhaps the Referee, if he did in fact repeat the declaration, and Player A played a foolhardy shot to the Yellow anyway.
                            Last edited by acesinc; 29th July 2017, 01:44 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wemba View Post
                              At an amateur tournament Player A was becoming annoyed at both his opponent and the referee.
                              Point one, he should not have allowed himself to be annoyed them, it will only ruin his focus and his game

                              Originally posted by wemba View Post
                              Player A was awarded a free ball and he began addressing an obvious yellow. There were no other colors anywhere near it.
                              This is your description of the balls on the table and we cannot second guess any other balls' positions.
                              But as Acesinc said, if there were reds near the Yellow then the referee was correct in asking. If we take your description as read, then I dont think the referee should have requested a declaration.

                              Originally posted by wemba View Post
                              The referee said "Please nominate". Player A sarcastically replied "Blue" (which was at the other end of the table).
                              The referee should have clearly repeated the nomination for all to hear.

                              Originally posted by wemba View Post
                              Player A played and potted the yellow. The referee called "Foul".
                              Correct action of the referee, Blue as nominated and was not the first ball contacted by the cue ball.

                              Originally posted by wemba View Post
                              Player A spat the dummy and it was on for young and old.".
                              What does this mean? Player A started arguing and a fight between the old and the young ensued?

                              Originally posted by wemba View Post
                              Who was in the right?
                              As you wrote it, the Referee was correct in awarding the penalty for Player A not hitting the nominated ball with the first contact with the cue ball.

                              BUT... this sounds like a classic case of accumulative human errors and misjudgements (either by deliberate actions/inactions of the referee and Player B towards Player A) and Player A as well (allowing himself to get rattled and the sarcastic nomination). Also possibly the referee was not an experienced referee ("Please nominate" is not the correct statement by a referee) and maybe assumed that a verbal declaration is always required to nominate a Free Ball; it is not.
                              Let's hope that all those involved have learnt some lessons from this situation.
                              Up the TSF!

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