grip and primary fingers

[highestbreak50]

i have been having issue with my grip for awhile now and its getting annoying now.
let me explain what i have experienced with my grip:


my grip is nice and firm and i can pull the cue very straight and i let other fingers open and i let the ring finger firm enough............i do a very slow backswing and a rare pause and with a very nice cue acceleration i deliver the cue ( and i close the grip nearly/during the grip hits the chest ) however, when i play medium and hard shots, i tent to squeeze the cue unintentionally ,sometimes the first 2 fingers and sometimes the last 3 fingers

more depth explanation here:
i saw my coach regarding this few times, and recently he said that players who tend to drop their shoulder should relax their first 2 fingers ( thumb + forefinger ) as they deliver the cue, in other words, you close only the last 3 fingers (( as if you are snapping the last 3 fingers to close the grip )) and the first 2 fingers should open more or be relaxed .
he said, ronnie, judd, stephen lee etc, they close the grip with the last 3 fingers and their first 2 fingers relaxes during/after delivery. players like higgen, robertson are closing their grip with their first 2 fingers. ( so their primary fingers are thumb and forfinger to close the grip after the delivery.

how do i normally grip:
i pull the cue back with my thumb+forfinger although the other 3 fingers are helping me to pull the cue back and forth, however the primary fingers are thumb+forfinger, and as i close the grip i use thumb+forfinger , but as soon as i play medium to extreme power shot, i squeeze all the fingers, so then i realize i dont have any primary fingers , i feel that i am squeezing ( just to mention that i only squeeze after the delivery, but yeah i can see its really effecting my shot, which means this might be happening during the delivery.

what coach asked me to practice:
pull the cue back with thumb+forfinger and when needed open other fingers to let the cue come back straight, however make sure you pull the cue back with thumb+forfinger. now when you are in back pause, deliver the cue with only the last 3 fingers and close the grip once you hit your chest, this way would thumb+forfinger will be relaxed


i practiced this few days, i can see that i do not squeeze anymore , however i play some really really nice and power shots, but i feel so uncomfortable and sometimes i miss very easy shots.
i will be happy if anyone could explain this squeezing and primary finger thing in detail. please do not say that pick a cue like hammer and thats your grip. i need more indepth explanation how to deliver the cue straight. in other words, when you deliver the cue , what fingers do you use to stop the cue come off your hand , especially when you play medium and extreme power shots

thank you

[Terry Davidson]

You present a good question and a difficult one for any coach. In the final analysis when you backswing the thumb and forefinger are the only 2 that are in contact with the cue and the back 3 should be either off the cue or lightly touching. As you deliver still use the forefinger and thumb only to accelerate the cue but somewhere in the delivery try switching the primary grip to the second finger (or you use the second finger as the primary). I don't understand what the problem is as you are doing all the right things. The only thing I can see is if you are using the thumb to grip the cue then that is not great as it's aleteral force to consider.

I use the Joe Davis recommended grip, letting the cue lie in the bed of the 4 fingers with the thumb just holding the cue in the bed. There should be no gripping pressure on the cue with any of the fingers. During backswing the cue easily pushes the back 3 fingers out of the way and the cue is 'held' by just the forefinger and the thumb is again only holding the cue inside the forefinger an neither one exerts pressure on the cue. This remains like this from the start of the delivery to the actual strike but the back 3 fingers slowly curl around the butt but do not exert and pressure at all until well after the strike or until the grip hand hits the chest which is ideal. I find this grip works well for power shots but I still have the problem of closing the back 3 fingers too early.

Don't know if this will help or not as your coach sounds like a pretty knowledgeable guy.

[highestbreak50]

[QUOTE=Terry Davidson;941264] As you deliver still use the forefinger and thumb only to accelerate the cue but somewhere in the delivery try switching the primary grip to the second finger (or you use the second finger as the primary).


this is the part where i am struggling, and my cue goes either to the right or left, becaz i am doing something wrong with the fingers, close the wrong finger.
( by the way what did u mean by second finger as i have highlighted )
i used to grip with thumb+forfinger and open the grip and i used to stop the cue from going forward or finishing the deliver with thumb and forefinger. the coach said relax thumb and forefinger and only snap the last 3 fingers

i found this in snookercoach website, and i think you have metnioned the same thing as my coach has mentioned, maybe, maybe

SLOWLY start your delivery and GENTLY close the back three fingers around the butt HOWEVER DO NOT INCREASE THEIR PRESSURE SO THE ARE JUST TOUCHING THE BUTT OF THE CUE and deliver the cue maintaining this nice and relaxed grip until the cue strikes the cueball and meets some resistance from the weight of the cueball and at that time start gripping the butt with the back 3 fingers BUT TRY NOT TO CURL THEM AROUND THE BUTT TOO HARD WITH A LOT OF PRESSURE AS THAT WILL TAKE THE BUTT OF THE CUE OFF-LINE.

Drive the cue through the cueball and don’t stop it until the back of your thumb hits the chest which will squeeze the thumb over to the right and give you a tight hold on the butt without moving it to the right or left.

Lastly, There needs to be no tension in your grip or forearm or upper arm or shoulder as you cue and make the strike. Let them all be relaxed. Tightness DECREASES control which is counterintuitive to most player below 50 break standard. Looseness however is more likely to REVEAL any cueing imperfections which you can then address using the methods above. This is why most 50 breakers or under hold too tight – they dont want to be forced to be faced with their cueing errors.


this is the part where i am struggling

so this is what i am doing, i grip as you said put the cue in the bed of forfinger, and open the last 3 fingers so the slightly touching the cue, but thumb and forefingers is holing the cue. i would say i am fine till backswing.

i basically face problem as i start to move the cue forward
so last few days i practiced to move the cue forward with the same thumb+forefinger, but as before impact i try to use all the last 3 fingers to finish the snapping and close the grip as it hits the chest


i know i am doing something wrong with this grip, i can tell. as soon as i close the grip differently i either pot very good balls, or miss all of them etc

and i read your post on snookercoach website and someone has mentioned that it has helped him. and the way that you explained these last paragraphs their, how to deliver the cue, and use the last 3 fingers but dont yet close it but once the cue hits the cueball then you close it etc. maybe this is what my coach meant, dont know

an easy example is that my grip is like john higgens grip shape after the delivery, ( if you see his forefinger you will know what i mean) but the other grip is like ronnie, judd trump ( watch their forfinger )

john higgens uses his forfinger as primary what closing the grip ( i mean his forfinger gets all those impact when the cueball hits the tip of the cue while judd trump , ronnie , for them the last 3 fingers takes all those impact )

i hope you get what i mean

thank you

[highestbreak50]

I use the Joe Davis recommended grip, letting the cue lie in the bed of the 4 fingers with the thumb just holding the cue in the bed. There should be no gripping pressure on the cue with any of the fingers. During backswing the cue easily pushes the back 3 fingers out of the way and the cue is 'held' by just the forefinger and the thumb is again only holding the cue inside the forefinger an neither one exerts pressure on the cue. This remains like this from the start of the delivery to the actual strike but the back 3 fingers slowly curl around the butt but do not exert and pressure at all until well after the strike or until the grip hand hits the chest which is ideal. I find this grip works well for power shots but I still have the problem of closing the back 3 fingers too early.

so when you deliver, do you start the cue acceleration forward with last 3 fingers ? or you start with the same thumb and forefinger, and mid way or just before the tip hits the cueball then you start to close only the last 3 fingers and let your thumb and forefinger relax !

i tested myself today, when i was in the back pause, i started to use the last 3 finger and push the cue forward and then end the delivery with the same 3 fingers. however i also did another test so that i push the cue forward with the thumb+forefinger and some where mid way i used 3 fingers to close the grip.

just to mention one thing more, i watch a video of stephen lee, he says when you are in a back pause, start closing your grip as you start to accelerate or push the cue forward ( this is the opposibte of what coaches tell or i have read your posts, where you have mentioned that close the grip as late as possible , or atleast when it hits the chest ) , i just wanted to mention this bit about stephen lee's video, i ignored it since i didnt get what he meant

[highestbreak50]

i was reading other of your posts and i found this

The golden rule is 'DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION OF THE GRIP HAND DURING THE DELIVERY

mmmmm!

Original Source: It is in the Grip after all. http://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/boa...#ixzz4tbSlbDVB

[Terry Davidson]

I start the delivery using JUST THE FOREFINGER. The thumb plays no part and does not squeeze on the cue throughout the delivery (or the backswing). At the back of the backswing you should see that only your forefinger has a hold on the cue due to the angle of the forearm and the cue. I try not to close the back 3 fingers, especially the baby finger until after the strike but I'm not always successful due to the dynamic nature and speed of acceleration of the cue.

Stephen Lee is a law unto himself and I don't know how he can close his back 3 fingers before the strike and keep the cue online as I sure can't. Jimmy white used to leave his back 3 fingers relaxed through the entire delivery. Any pressure from the thumb helps divert the cue and what I've found with myself is it gives me right-to-left striking which I've been trying to conquer for ages.

I think you're very close. Relax the thumb because it only holds the cue in the bed of the fingers but does not squeeze the cue at all. I've found the more relaxed I keep the grip when in the address position the better results I get however for me it's very difficult because I always had a short backswing which meant I have to accelerate very quickly on a power shot. Developing a longer backswing where the room to accelerate the cue is longer really helps with keeping the grip nice and loose until after the strike. In a power shot the natural reaction is to tighten the grip at the start of the delivery but if you're only gripping with the forefinger (or second finger) there is less sideways force on the butt of the cue.

[highestbreak50]

this is a perfect video for you to understand what i mean

he mentions 4 types of grip ( the first one is what i normally use, however i am facing all those problems what he states here )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FQ3E0Oo8yw

at start he says some players decelerate the cue bebcaz the thumb+forfinger causes it. and towards the end he says, and at 5:26 he says if you dont relax thumb+forefingers then you tend to move the cue, this is exactly what i am facing at the moment, when i play medium to extreme power shots, i tent to miss all the time

very good video, but still i dont understand him , what fingers to use when pulling the cue back!

please watch the video, thank you


and also

please read this post too

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=268417
specially the 3rd , 5th and , 7th comment

thank you

[Terry Davidson]

All I can suggesst is you try all of the grips outline in your 2 videos and try and find what's best for you. Alex Higgins and Ronnie used the back of the hand (last 3 fingers) with forefinger up off the cue and relaxed. I've never tried the back 2 fingers only but I'm going to.

What I meant and mis-stated is the configuration of the WRIST (not the hand) cannot change throughout the backswing and delivery. Keep the thumb loosely on the cue and do not apply pressure but experiment a bit and find out what's best for you. You can find every kind of grip amongst all the great players so I'm starting to believe the grip is specific to the player concerned and I think I'm still having trouble finding my 'ideal' grip and I've tried all of them. Actually the back 3 fingers loosely holding the cue has worked best for me but the problem is it comes and goes possible because some other problem get involved, like upper body movement on power shots.

The back 3 fingers does limit the length of backswing but even Steve Davis tried it for awhile near the end of his career.

[Terry Davidson]

Try the middle (second) finger only and leave the other 3 fingers and thumb loose. Twisting of the cue and taking it off line is usually cause by movement of the wrist joint. It might be barely there but any movement on a longer power shot is enough to take the cue off-line and miss the pot, especially to a partially closed pocket.

[highestbreak50]

All I can suggesst is you try all of the grips outline in your 2 videos and try and find what's best for you. Alex Higgins and Ronnie used the back of the hand (last 3 fingers) with forefinger up off the cue and relaxed. I've never tried the back 2 fingers only but I'm going to.

What I meant and mis-stated is the configuration of the WRIST (not the hand) cannot change throughout the backswing and delivery. Keep the thumb loosely on the cue and do not apply pressure but experiment a bit and find out what's best for you. You can find every kind of grip amongst all the great players so I'm starting to believe the grip is specific to the player concerned and I think I'm still having trouble finding my 'ideal' grip and I've tried all of them. Actually the back 3 fingers loosely holding the cue has worked best for me but the problem is it comes and goes possible because some other problem get involved, like upper body movement on power shots.

The back 3 fingers does limit the length of backswing but even Steve Davis tried it for awhile near the end of his career.

you said back 3 fingers does limit the length of backswing ( however its not doing that for me, maybe i am doing it wrong... i pull the cue back with thumb+forefinger and i open the 3 fingers, but when i deliver the cue i use the back 3 fingers to snap or close the grip ) am i doing it wrong?

[highestbreak50]

Try the middle (second) finger only and leave the other 3 fingers and thumb loose. Twisting of the cue and taking it off line is usually cause by movement of the wrist joint. It might be barely there but any movement on a longer power shot is enough to take the cue off-line and miss the pot, especially to a partially closed pocket.

you meant, i try my middle finger or second finger? sort of confused with fingers option here

[highestbreak50]

i can tell that this is my grip now , time to fix this properly
after playing 6 years, i have fixed almost everything, except a proper grip

last 6 days, been trying to play with new grip
this is how i practice with new grip

i pull the cue back using all fingers, opening the last 3 fingers as i pull back.
now i used 2 methods to deliver once i am in the back pause mode.
1: i deliver the cue using thumb+forfinger and in midway i use the last 3 fingers to finish the delivery and i let the thumb+forefinger to be relaxed
2: i deliver the cue straight awy using the back 3 fingers, and i let the front fingers ( thumb+forefinger) to be relaxed

am i doing something wrong here, its almost a week playing with this grip. feels so uncomfortable but trust me, i can pot some extreme power shots with straight delivery and i can pot more balls, however its not consistent, most of the time i miss easiest shots. thats y i kept playing with this new grip thinking that i might get used to it

just wanna know should i stick with this grip or try something else now?

thank you for your support

[Terry Davidson]

you meant, i try my middle finger or second finger? sort of confused with fingers option here

Hold your hand away from your face with the back of the hand facing you. Now, finger #1 is the index finger. Finger #2 (counting from left to right) is the MIDDLE or SECOND FINGER, Finger #3 is the RING FINGER and Finger #4 is the BABY FINGER.

Is that clear now?

[Terry Davidson]

i can tell that this is my grip now , time to fix this properly
after playing 6 years, i have fixed almost everything, except a proper grip

last 6 days, been trying to play with new grip
this is how i practice with new grip

i pull the cue back using all fingers, opening the last 3 fingers as i pull back.
now i used 2 methods to deliver once i am in the back pause mode.
1: i deliver the cue using thumb+forfinger and in midway i use the last 3 fingers to finish the delivery and i let the thumb+forefinger to be relaxed
2: i deliver the cue straight awy using the back 3 fingers, and i let the front fingers ( thumb+forefinger) to be relaxed

am i doing something wrong here, its almost a week playing with this grip. feels so uncomfortable but trust me, i can pot some extreme power shots with straight delivery and i can pot more balls, however its not consistent, most of the time i miss easiest shots. thats y i kept playing with this new grip thinking that i might get used to it

just wanna know should i stick with this grip or try something else now?

thank you for your support

This is so frustrating. You are over-thinking this problem. Your grip sounds fine but for christ's sake DECIDE ON ONE AND STICK WITH IT. If you want a little tip try just pushing the thumb against the tip of the forefinger (NOT THE CUE) so it keeps the forefinger loose throughout the delivery and then close you back 3 fingers as your doing now but have the thumb hold the forefinger still and loose.

You do not need to grip or hold the cue at all until you actually strike the cueball and just a minimum at that time too. The cue weighs 4.5 times the weight of the cueball.

[highestbreak50]

This is so frustrating. You are over-thinking this problem. Your grip sounds fine but for christ's sake DECIDE ON ONE AND STICK WITH IT. If you want a little tip try just pushing the thumb against the tip of the forefinger (NOT THE CUE) so it keeps the forefinger loose throughout the delivery and then close you back 3 fingers as your doing now but have the thumb hold the forefinger still and loose.

You do not need to grip or hold the cue at all until you actually strike the cueball and just a minimum at that time too. The cue weighs 4.5 times the weight of the cueball.

thank you terry
feels so uncomfortable but my cueing is better now when i only use the back 3 fingers to close the grip, although sometimes i feel the cue is abit loose since the forefinger is relaxed etc

so now all i do is, i have a normal grip as most players when i am in address position, i pull the cue back and open the back 3 fingers, and i deliver the cue and close the back 3 fingers, and the thumb and forefingers stay relaxed.
one problem here, sometimes the back 3 fingers close too early. thats why i also experiment to deliver few inches using forefinger and thumb and mid way i use the back 3 fingers to finish the delivery. however sometimes i feel that when i make those changes mid delivery , the cue is too loose etc

thank you for the support