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  • Questi about black ball

    Need clarification

    Playing a frame and I'm one point ahead of my opponent with only the black ball left on the table.

    I go for a thin cut to the middle but miss the black ball.

    Is that frame over and opponent wins the frame or do we continue till one of us pots the black?

  • #2
    Frame over I'm afraid and you lose the frame. One foul on the black ends the frame unless the scores are tied. If tied the black is spotted and you toss to see who goes first. Again one foul or black potted ends the frame.

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    • #3
      as Nifty said, the first pot or foul ends the frame and the appropriate points applied. The winner being the person with the most points; if a draw, a respot black etc as Nifty said
      Up the TSF!

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      • #4
        And just to clarify... if there's a respotted black the cue ball is played from in hand, not where it has come to rest (if on the table).
        Duplicate of banned account deleted

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        • #5
          Thanks guys

          Much appreciated

          Comment


          • #6
            All possible situations with only black:

            a)-Guy in turn is 8+ points: He can shot or no, according his will. But anyway is the last shot:

            b)-Guy in turn is 7 points: Game continues until one score, by potted the black or a foul. If 7 points goes to him, he wins. If goes to the opponent, then apply respotted black rule as usual, regardless how the points were awarded

            c)-Difference is 6 or less poitns: First score or first foul ends the frame, and guy who is awarded the points wins the frame

            -d) Guy in turn is behind 7 points: Applies as b)

            e) Guy in turn is behind 8+ points: Frame is over and he is not allowed to shot

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            • #7
              There is one other scenario, where, if scores are tied after the last pot or foul on the black, then there isn't a re-spot.
              That is in an aggregate scores match. e.g. the winner, or winning team, is when after, say 3 frames, the player or team with most aggregate points wins the match. In this case, one of the frames could be tied and no re-spot black. However, if the aggregate scores at the end of the match are tied, then the black is re-spotted and players/sides draw lots to see who plays first.
              In the case of teams playing an aggregate match and the aggregate scores are tied, it is the last two players who play the re-spotted black.
              Last edited by DawRef; 4th May 2019, 10:45 PM.
              You are only the best on the day you win.

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              • #8
                Looks like i need to learn the rules better, i would have thought if he was 1 in front and misses the black ball the opponent gets 7 points and is then 6 in front, but that would mean the opponent would still need to pot the black to win the frame.
                Interesting, but you guys probably know better, i'll go re-learn the rules

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Delphiwizard View Post
                  Looks like i need to learn the rules better, i would have thought if he was 1 in front and misses the black ball the opponent gets 7 points and is then 6 in front, but that would mean the opponent would still need to pot the black to win the frame.
                  Interesting, but you guys probably know better, i'll go re-learn the rules
                  Many think this and I actually over heard a couple of gents on another table down the club, one player slightly in the lead (under seven points) fouls, so his opponent now has a lead and should have won (first score or foul ends the frame) but the loser (in more ways than one) said "oh you now have to pot the black to win" - the winner looks doubtful and catches my eye, I shake my head. So he addresses the black, hits it off three cushion and into the corner pocket, and shakes hands, packs his cue and walks out the hall to the bar. Loser stood there dumbfounded

                  FYI Rule 3.4 End of Frame, Game or Match
                  (a) When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
                  (i) the scores are then equal; and
                  (ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
                  (b) When both conditions in (a) above apply:
                  (i) the Black is spotted;
                  (ii) the players draw lots for choice of playing next;
                  (iii) the next player plays from in hand; and
                  (iv) the next score or foul ends the frame.
                  (c) When aggregate scores determine the winner of a game or match, and the aggregate scores are equal at the end of the last frame, the players in that frame shall follow the procedure for a re-spotted Black set out in (b) above.
                  Last edited by DeanH; 5th May 2019, 03:30 PM.
                  Up the TSF!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DeanH View Post
                    Many think this and I actually over heard a couple of gents on another table down the club, one player slightly in the lead (under seven points) fouls, so his opponent now has a lead and should have won (first score or foul ends the frame) but the loser (in more ways than one) said "oh you now have to pot the black to win" - the winner looks doubtful and catches my eye, I shake my head. So he addresses the black, hits it off three cushion and into the corner pocket, and shakes hands, packs his cue and walks out the hall to the bar. Loser stood there dumbfounded

                    FYI Rule 3.4 End of Frame, Game or Match
                    (a) When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
                    (i) the scores are then equal; and
                    (ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
                    (b) When both conditions in (a) above apply:
                    (i) the Black is spotted;
                    (ii) the players draw lots for choice of playing next;
                    (iii) the next player plays from in hand; and
                    (iv) the next score or foul ends the frame.
                    (c) When aggregate scores determine the winner of a game or match, and the aggregate scores are equal at the end of the last frame, the players in that frame shall follow the procedure for a re-spotted Black set out in (b) above.

                    Wow I must have won and lost as many frames because we didn't re-spot the black. I'm not sure what drawing lots means but I'm pretty sure that's ye olde rule rulebook speak for the coin toss so who does the ref ask first? Is it the person who broke off or the next player in sequence after the black was respotted? How does aggregate scores work? Does that apply to frames won and perhaps the one trailing chooses to go first from the D or pass?
                    www.mixcloud.com/jfd

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MrRottweiler View Post
                      Wow I must have won and lost as many frames because we didn't re-spot the black. I'm not sure what drawing lots means but I'm pretty sure that's ye olde rule rulebook speak for the coin toss so who does the ref ask first? Is it the person who broke off or the next player in sequence after the black was respotted? How does aggregate scores work? Does that apply to frames won and perhaps the one trailing chooses to go first from the D or pass?
                      Aggregate scores only apply when that is the nature of the match e.g. If it is decided that the winner is the player to score the most points combined over 3 frames and that the frame score is irrelevant. I've only ever seen it once in a team match, so pressume it was something that was popular in the past. Drawing lots is generally a coin toss when a black is respotted in a regular match, so would be the same in an aggregate match (unless you don't have a coin, then you can improvise)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MrRottweiler View Post
                        I'm not sure what drawing lots means but I'm pretty sure that's ye olde rule rulebook speak for the coin toss so who does the ref ask first? Is it the person who broke off or the next player in sequence after the black was respotted? How does aggregate scores work? Does that apply to frames won and perhaps the one trailing chooses to go first from the D or pass?
                        Draw Lots = decide randomly, spin/toss a coin, throw dice, draw straws

                        nowadays it is usually toss of the coin
                        I have seen that most referees ask the player who potted the last black for their choice of the coin toss; the winner of the toss has the choice as to go first to to pass to the opponent to go first.

                        Aggregate means (in snooker) the total number of points scored added together in a frame, just like we usually have in a snooker frame BUT at the end of that frame you would continue the score into the next frame and add the scores continually - till the end of the agreed number of frames.
                        In an aggregate match the black must be potted at the end of each frame and the player who potted the black breaks of the next frame, until the LAST frame of the agreed number of frames when then it may be a tie break situation and the respot black (as in snooker we know) will occur.
                        Until a few years ago my club, in the internal competitions, had aggregate scores over 3 frames - 5 for the final - the winner being not the count of frames but the points scored.
                        The official WPBSA rules still cover this type of match as additional clauses/sections for "where aggregate scores apply".
                        I think this is a carry over from the billiard days where points scored mattered as usually they did not have "frames" but games, where a game was either first to a certain score (1000 UP-= first to 1000 scored) or a time limited game where the person with the most points at the time end won. Of course there could be multiple games in the challenge based on the agreed number of games
                        Last edited by DeanH; 5th May 2019, 11:24 PM.
                        Up the TSF!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DeanH View Post
                          Draw Lots = decide randomly, spin/toss a coin, throw dice, draw straws

                          nowadays it is usually toss of the coin
                          I have seen that most referees ask the player who potted the last black for their choice of the coin toss; the winner of the toss has the choice as to go first to to pass to the opponent to go first.

                          Aggregate means (in snooker) the total number of points scored added together in a frame, just like we usually have in a snooker frame BUT at the end of that frame you would continue the score into the next frame and add the scores continually - till the end of the agreed number of frames.
                          In an aggregate match the black must be potted at the end of each frame and the player who potted the black breaks of the next frame, until the LAST frame of the agreed number of frames when then it may be a tie break situation and the respot black (as in snooker we know) will occur.
                          Until a few years ago my club, in the internal competitions, had aggregate scores over 3 frames - 5 for the final - the winner being not the count of frames but the points scored.
                          The official WPBSA rules still cover this type of match as additional clauses/sections for "where aggregate scores apply".
                          I think this is a carry over from the billiard days where points scored mattered as usually they did not have "frames" but games, where a game was either first to a certain score (1000 UP-= first to 1000 scored) or a time limited game where the person with the most points at the time end won. Of course there could be multiple games in the challenge based on the agreed number of games

                          Cheers for the info and it sounded like drawing straws but I've never seen a ref produce straws I like how the rulebook is still written in language that will have been penned decades ago and I hope the procedure to amend them are very strict to preserve it.

                          I was curious about a rule that directs who the ref asks first because it's become an important decision in the modern game when a player will want to win the toss so they can go first. It used to be a shot to avoid and hope your opponent goes for a double in to a baulk pocket or rolls up to it but now they always cut it on to the bottom left or right cushion and bring the cueball back to baulk.
                          www.mixcloud.com/jfd

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DeanH View Post
                            I have seen that most referees ask the player who potted the last black for their choice of the coin toss;
                            A lot of referees will ask the player who did wasn't asked to choose at the initial toss of a coin at the start of the match.
                            Duplicate of banned account deleted

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MrRottweiler View Post
                              Cheers for the info and it sounded like drawing straws but I've never seen a ref produce straws I like how the rulebook is still written in language that will have been penned decades ago and I hope the procedure to amend them are very strict to preserve it.

                              I was curious about a rule that directs who the ref asks first because it's become an important decision in the modern game when a player will want to win the toss so they can go first. It used to be a shot to avoid and hope your opponent goes for a double in to a baulk pocket or rolls up to it but now they always cut it on to the bottom left or right cushion and bring the cueball back to baulk.
                              who to ask - not a rule as in it is not in the book
                              whether the referees association have discussed this and have it in there guidelines I don't know
                              but I have watched closely when a tie-break arises who the referee asks first and it appears to be the player who potted the last black
                              now sometimes that player will gesture for the opponent to decide the toss of the coin...
                              Last edited by DeanH; 5th May 2019, 11:37 PM.
                              Up the TSF!

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