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Ferrules and Throw and Spin

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  • #31
    Thanks guys, there's some good science and experiment in these papers with results that are much better than hearsay!

    The conclusion seems to be that endmass is the most important thing. So, thin walled titanium is going to have a lot less endmass than brass, because it's less dense and there is less of it, ceteris parabus. If it was some form of plastic, let's say nylon, it would have even less endmass and thus throw. Is this part of the reason why North American cue makers use a lot of fibre/plastic ferrules? It would seem so. The authors are suggesting that endmass is effectively increased as the shaft becomes stiffer because of the behaviour of transverse elastic waves so don't bother using a carbon fibre shaft then! If you really hate throw, stiff shafts should be avoided which is counter intuitive to what most cue experts say; buy as stiff a shaft as you can tolerate.

    Dr. Dave seems to have tested a lot of pool cues, all with plastic ferrules.

    Terry has suggested that fibre has less throw than BS and this makes sense. Though the BS will change the behaviour of the transverse elastic waves, which will make it better than brass in terms of less throw. But is it as good as thin walled titanium?

    The papers suggest that a hard tip will also increase endmass and throw. So another way of reducing throw is to switch to a softer tip. That pretty much rules out laminates in terms of minimising throw; a buffalo diamond plus or elk seems to be the way forward.

    * Meucci are making laminated maple shafts with up to 35 layers. I didn't even know such things existed; even more science! The shafts themselves are claimed to reduce throw by 50% compared to solid maple. The Americans are doing all this research and tech and here we are wacking a brass ferrule on ash.
    Last edited by Master Blaster; 3 March 2015, 09:21 PM.

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    • #32
      Very interesting subject. I found the following link on the net which is very interesting:-

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/othe...er/4432771.stm

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      • #33
        Where have most cue experts said you should use a stiff shaft?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Master Blaster View Post
          Thanks guys, there's some good science and experiment in these papers with results that are much better than hearsay!

          The conclusion seems to be that endmass is the most important thing. So, thin walled titanium is going to have a lot less endmass than brass, because it's less dense and there is less of it, ceteris parabus. If it was some form of plastic, let's say nylon, it would have even less endmass and thus throw. Is this part of the reason why North American cue makers use a lot of fibre/plastic ferrules? It would seem so. The authors are suggesting that endmass is effectively increased as the shaft becomes stiffer because of the behaviour of transverse elastic waves so don't bother using a carbon fibre shaft then! If you really hate throw, stiff shafts should be avoided which is counter intuitive to what most cue experts say; buy as stiff a shaft as you can tolerate.

          Dr. Dave seems to have tested a lot of pool cues, all with plastic ferrules.

          Terry has suggested that fibre has less throw than BS and this makes sense. Though the BS will change the behaviour of the transverse elastic waves, which will make it better than brass in terms of less throw. But is it as good as thin walled titanium?

          The papers suggest that a hard tip will also increase endmass and throw. So another way of reducing throw is to switch to a softer tip. That pretty much rules out laminates in terms of minimising throw; a buffalo diamond plus or elk seems to be the way forward.

          * Meucci are making laminated maple shafts with up to 35 layers. I didn't even know such things existed; even more science! The shafts themselves are claimed to reduce throw by 50% compared to solid maple. The Americans are doing all this research and tech and here we are wacking a brass ferrule on ash.
          I'm using a hard laminated phoenix tip at the moment and there is virtually no throw. I have another cue with a stiffer shaft and an elk on it and this cue throws a **** load more

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          • #35
            100%.embarrassing

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            • #36
              So...where can one source a titanium ferrule with 5mm in height and around 9.3-9.4mm?
              Terry Davidson
              IBSF Master Coach & Examiner

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              • #37
                Forget it tel, my ferrule is made of unobtainium and it's shxxe

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by golferson123 View Post
                  Forget it tel, my ferrule is made of unobtainium and it's shxxe
                  So I guess we're left with short and thin-walled brass or fiber to reduce the end weight if someone wants to
                  Terry Davidson
                  IBSF Master Coach & Examiner

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                  • #39
                    Tight linen weave for throw and brass for hit,you takes your choice

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                    • #40
                      Terry, I'll make you a couple.
                      I assume you only want plain holed and not threaded?
                      Drop me a PM with what you want and I'll sort it out.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by YDJ View Post
                        Terry, I'll make you a couple.
                        I assume you only want plain holed and not threaded?
                        Drop me a PM with what you want and I'll sort it out.
                        Much appreciated as I can try it on one of my other cues here although Richy (The Doctor) is making me a laminated cue which I just ordered. PM coming shortly
                        Terry Davidson
                        IBSF Master Coach & Examiner

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Terry Davidson View Post
                          Much appreciated as I can try it on one of my other cues here although Richy (The Doctor) is making me a laminated cue which I just ordered. PM coming shortly
                          What happened to being really happy with your Legend?!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Terry Davidson View Post
                            Much appreciated as I can try it on one of my other cues here although Richy (The Doctor) is making me a laminated cue which I just ordered. PM coming shortly
                            good choice !!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Master Blaster View Post
                              What happened to being really happy with your Legend?!
                              Not a Legend just a custom built MW cue with Blackspin ferrule and medium flex shaft. I have found the throw of this cue to be significantly less than the Acuerate I have here which was the lowest throw model (frankly not very good quality either).

                              However I have had the experience of changing from brass to black fiber on a Parris cue I used to use and I definitely found the throw to be less with the fiber. Since I tend to cue right-to-left on power shots and get unintentional side on most power shots I would like to see if I can find a cue/ferrule/tip combination which may reduce the resulting unintentional throw. My own research tells me the laminated shafts will reduce throw without taking away any spin, a medium flex cue will reduce throw and titanium is a lot lighter than either brass, stainless steel (which I've tried) or fiber.

                              So I thought I would try a laminated shaft with medium flex and a shorter and thinner titanium ferrule and see what the results are. If I find the titanium has other properties which bother me I can always change the ferrule. I don't think this will happen though and after all the purpose of a ferrule and why they were introduced was to protect the end of the cue and titanium has more strength than brass, fiber or stainless steel.

                              The reason I had to change that Parris cue with the fiber ferrule is I had a very bad mis-cue which damaged the tenon and the ferrule and I had to take about 1/2" off the cue and it just wasn't the same any more.
                              Terry Davidson
                              IBSF Master Coach & Examiner

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Terry Davidson View Post
                                Not a Legend just a custom built MW cue with Blackspin ferrule and medium flex shaft. I have found the throw of this cue to be significantly less than the Acuerate I have here which was the lowest throw model (frankly not very good quality either).

                                However I have had the experience of changing from brass to black fiber on a Parris cue I used to use and I definitely found the throw to be less with the fiber. Since I tend to cue right-to-left on power shots and get unintentional side on most power shots I would like to see if I can find a cue/ferrule/tip combination which may reduce the resulting unintentional throw. My own research tells me the laminated shafts will reduce throw without taking away any spin, a medium flex cue will reduce throw and titanium is a lot lighter than either brass, stainless steel (which I've tried) or fiber.

                                So I thought I would try a laminated shaft with medium flex and a shorter and thinner titanium ferrule and see what the results are. If I find the titanium has other properties which bother me I can always change the ferrule. I don't think this will happen though and after all the purpose of a ferrule and why they were introduced was to protect the end of the cue and titanium has more strength than brass, fiber or stainless steel.

                                The reason I had to change that Parris cue with the fiber ferrule is I had a very bad mis-cue which damaged the tenon and the ferrule and I had to take about 1/2" off the cue and it just wasn't the same any more.
                                If you're cueing across the ball on power shots, shouldn't h you be working in cueing as well as investing in titanium/LM?

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