cue arm&shoulder

[alabadi]

Thanks for the replies, well to answer a few questions its a case of stalemate, i have now been playing seriously for 4 years and although i have been improving steadily i have reached a point where i have just hit a wall. i know i am cueing better and shots which i use to not get i can get with ease now, however there are still shots that trouble me.

after watching this post and reading Teds dilemmas it was interesting to see someone who can make 70 breaks and still thinks his alignment is holding him back from improving further. ( i would be satisfied with the odd 70 break)

this is what prompted me to look at my alignment. and it was n't that good, (Terry i have uploaded an earlier pic which shows my elbow behind my shoulder towards my back)

J6UK maybe soon ill record a new vid and post it for you and others to pull it apart...lol

so the crust of it i want to get to the stage that i am knocking in decent breaks and i am consistent in doing so, despite my age i am stubbon and have the will to work hard at it, whatever it take i am determined to get there

[Terry Davidson]

Where's the photo you're talking about above^^?

Terry

[itsnoteasy]

Post 240 on this thread Terry.

[Terry Davidson]

Post 240 on this thread Terry.

alabadi:

Yes, the first photo in post #240 shows your elbow hanging in a bit BUT the damned line isn't vertical so it looks worse than it is. In the second set of 2 photos in post #264 I would say your alignment is PERFECT and would disagree with 'hsn' comments on those 2 photos.

If you aren't improving with that alignment getting plenty of practice then I would look elsewhere for whatever is holding you back. The first thing I would look at is the grip...is it relaxed through the whole backswing and delivery? Next I would look at your actual backswing...is it absolutely straight and not too fast? Next I would look at your delivery...is it straight and of special importance are you accelerating through the cueball with the grip still relaxed and not stopping the acceleration of the cue until the back of your grip hand hits your chest (this will squeeze the thumb into the cue and automatically tighten the grip well after the strike, in fact at the very end of the delivery).

So all this said what you need to do is put up a series of 3 videos. The first from straight on with the camera showing from 6" in front of the cueball to the top of the elbow and try 10 long blue 'stop shots'. The second should be from directly behind you with the camera showing from the top of the elbow down to just below the cue. The third should be from the grip hand side showing from top of elbow down to just below the cue.

Take 5 long blue stop shots with each video. Forget about your stance and alignment as I'd be willing to bet they are fine judging from the 2 photos in post #264. Post those videos and don't worry if you miss the blue since that will more than likely tell us where you're going wrong. If you don't want to post the videos on here then email me with a link and I'll take a look, free of charge.

Terry

[alabadi]

Thanks Terry that will be helpful. I will try and do some in the next couple of days

[tedisbill]

Alabadi:

Your biggest problem is not accelerating through the cue ball on every single shot. When I watch your line-up videos, you tend to very tentatively hit the cue ball. As Terry says, you must accelerate through the white on every shot.

Your latest line up video, you even laugh at yourself after the first black. Then you play a red to the middle and jump up on the shot. You again say out loud "didn't commit to it".

For me this is what is holding you back. You MUST stike the cue ball positively every single time.

[hsn]

Hi Terry can you please enlighten me out of your coaching experience what comments of of mine do you disagree with in post # 267? Did I say that the alignment is not good?

alabadi:

Yes, the first photo in post #240 shows your elbow hanging in a bit BUT the damned line isn't vertical so it looks worse than it is. In the second set of 2 photos in post #264 I would say your alignment is PERFECT and would disagree with 'hsn' comments on those 2 photos.

If you aren't improving with that alignment getting plenty of practice then I would look elsewhere for whatever is holding you back. The first thing I would look at is the grip...is it relaxed through the whole backswing and delivery? Next I would look at your actual backswing...is it absolutely straight and not too fast? Next I would look at your delivery...is it straight and of special importance are you accelerating through the cueball with the grip still relaxed and not stopping the acceleration of the cue until the back of your grip hand hits your chest (this will squeeze the thumb into the cue and automatically tighten the grip well after the strike, in fact at the very end of the delivery).

So all this said what you need to do is put up a series of 3 videos. The first from straight on with the camera showing from 6" in front of the cueball to the top of the elbow and try 10 long blue 'stop shots'. The second should be from directly behind you with the camera showing from the top of the elbow down to just below the cue. The third should be from the grip hand side showing from top of elbow down to just below the cue.

Take 5 long blue stop shots with each video. Forget about your stance and alignment as I'd be willing to bet they are fine judging from the 2 photos in post #264. Post those videos and don't worry if you miss the blue since that will more than likely tell us where you're going wrong. If you don't want to post the videos on here then email me with a link and I'll take a look, free of charge.

Terry

[Byrom]

I'm not saying you shouldn't change things if they are drastically wrong and will eventually improve your game.

I'm on about you trying to contort your body into a shape where you look aesthetically correct in the stance, but might mess up any chance of cueing straight. You only have to look at pro pics to see this. ROS, Hendry, Higgins elbow in. Perry, Parrott, Reardon elbow out. Perry's shoulder visible etc etc. Don't you think if it was that imperative to straight cueing that all these players would have looked into it?

Snooker is a simple game of getting the cue on line, pulling it back straight and pushing it through straight. The 'secret' is working on a pre shot routine and walk in that enables this consistently. Whatever you look like to achieve this will be unique to you.

You say you have only been playing 3.5 years. Well I have been playing a lot longer to a pretty high standard and in the past have been sucked in to filling my head with all sorts of thoughts of what I 'should' be doing. And do you know when my best period of play was? When I was practicing more!

I like this answer personally - if you don't please form an orderly queue in the - how to over think it line.

Saying that however we have all been in that line at one time or another - so what the hell where did I put that mirror

[Terry Davidson]

Hi Terry can you please enlighten me out of your coaching experience what comments of of mine do you disagree with in post # 267? Did I say that the alignment is not good?

Did you not say to move the feet Around? Moving the feet will change what looks to me like a great alignment. I think alabadi needs to work on his. Rhythm and timing, especially accelerating through

Terry

[hsn]

I see. Do you know who helped him achieve that alignment? By the way it was me. He was saying that he managed to achieve this alignment by moving his shoulder out from his natural position and that he was not feeling natural and comfortable as well. What I said was to move (move meant to adjust and not to move them miles) his feet in such a way that the same alignment is achieved naturally, without having to say move his shoulder in or out only to end up missing the pot as the arm returns to its NATURAL position during the delivery.

I want to learn something from expert people like yourself but I am surprised to see that you often misunderstand what you should know better than us.

Did you not say to move the feet Around? Moving the feet will change what looks to me like a great alignment. I think alabadi needs to work on his. Rhythm and timing, especially accelerating through

Terry

[alabadi]

I see. Do you know who helped him achieve that alignment? By the way it was me. He was saying that he managed to achieve this alignment by moving his shoulder out from his natural position and that he was not feeling natural and comfortable as well. What I said was to move (move meant to adjust and not to move them miles) his feet in such a way that the same alignment is achieved naturally, without having to say move his shoulder in or out only to end up missing the pot as the arm returns to its NATURAL position during the delivery.

I want to learn something from expert people like yourself but I am surprised to see that you often misunderstand what you should know better than us.

yes hsn your advise is appreciated, however just to straighten things out i didn't move my shoulder i moved the left leg back a few inches and the cue slightly left of my chin too which pushed my elbow to the right a bit.
its still not perfect and i have found i am reverting back to my older setup on shots sometimes , it feels awkward at the moment so i'm gussing that's why. however i will try and persevere with it to see if it sticks.

although aligning my shoulder with the cue will help, i have other issues which have been mentioned too. i'm hoping this change will eventually make things better overall, but i'm sure its going to make things a lot worse before it gets better as i'm finding out

[hsn]

yes hsn your advise is appreciated, however just to straighten things out i didn't move my shoulder i moved the left leg back a few inches and the cue slightly left of my chin too which pushed my elbow to the right a bit.
its still not perfect and i have found i am reverting back to my older setup on shots sometimes , it feels awkward at the moment so i'm gussing that's why. however i will try and persevere with it to see if it sticks.

although aligning my shoulder with the cue will help, i have other issues which have been mentioned too. i'm hoping this change will eventually make things better overall, but i'm sure its going to make things a lot worse before it gets better as i'm finding out

Thanks for the clarification alabadi. I was just worried about your moving the cue to the left of your chin.

There are two answers to your post. First is short and to the point and the second is the elaboration.

The short answer is: Yes aligning your shoulder will definitely help. As suggested in my earlier posts, you'll have to make your stance feel more comfortable, balanced and conducive to the perfect alignment. And finally you'll have to put a mental CLAMP on the alignment when playing a shot in order to guard against it reverting back to where it used to be .

The long answer goes like this: My point is that you should not deliberately move anything to get it aligned except the tip of your elbow (but that's rather swinging it a little left or right not moving). The reason to this is that when you play a shot any unnaturally made alignment falls apart and this is a clear sign of the reason that you've started to miss the shots.

Consider your cue arm made of rubber which is bound to return to its natural position when any constraint applied is withdrawn. So the best practice would be to align it without having to put a constraint to it. And when it has aligned ITSELF you have to intentionally CLAMP it right there in place which will guard against its reverting back to your old setup.

You've mentioned issue with your leg due to the stretch. What you have to do is to find a stance that is balanced and feels comfortable to you AND in which your shoulder automatically aligns with the cue as soon as you get down on the shot.

After you've mastered the perfect alignment technique you'll have to work on the rhythm of the cue, the timing, the accelerated stroke and more finer aspects of the game.

I hope it clarifies most of the things. And I wish you best of luck.

[alabadi]

You've mentioned issue with your leg due to the stretch. What you have to do is to find a stance that is balanced and feels comfortable to you AND in which your shoulder automatically aligns with the cue as soon as you get down on the shot.

Thanks hsn for your reply, to be honest i haven't made any drastic movements its very minimal, all i have done is allow the cue to align more across my chest just over the inside of my nipple, i think its due to the change of stance (pulling my left leg back a bit) which has meant the change.

with regards to my knee the pain is not caused by the stance but from injuries i sustained while i played football extensively in my youth, i have had 3 ops on my knees so i have to be careful with them because any access stress causes discomfort.

i will have to find somewhere where it feels comfortable and not forced, however with the change it might take a while for it to be comfortable

[Terry Davidson]

I see. Do you know who helped him achieve that alignment? By the way it was me. He was saying that he managed to achieve this alignment by moving his shoulder out from his natural position and that he was not feeling natural and comfortable as well. What I said was to move (move meant to adjust and not to move them miles) his feet in such a way that the same alignment is achieved naturally, without having to say move his shoulder in or out only to end up missing the pot as the arm returns to its NATURAL position during the delivery.

I want to learn something from expert people like yourself but I am surprised to see that you often misunderstand what you should know better than us.

You are encouraging alabadi to change something that doesn't really need changing at all as the reason for his lack of improvement (in my opinion) has nothing to do with his alignment. His first picture (post #240) shows his elbow hanging in slightly towards his back (try straightening the line out and you'll see the elbow is less than an inch inside the vertical) and that exact same alignment was used by both John Higgins and Stephen Hendry when in their primes. Not that I advocate copying any particular pro, but with that alignment they encountered no problems playing very well.

Also, alabadi has stated he has a bad knee and telling him to change things and then introducing discomfort is definitely not the way to go. I know you said he should get rid of the discomfort but my argument is that there was nothing to 'improve' in the first place, so why advise him to twist himself less or more when he was set up just fine. That first alignment is likely what he developed naturally and without discomfort, which is the prime consideration with the set-up.

I'm afraid I agree with both golferson and (god help me) j6uk that this 'perfect alignment' thing you are pushing very heavily is (to quote the Bard) 'much ado about NOTHING'. There really are much more important things to the set-up and technique than alignment and that is where alabadi needs to work on.

Terry

[Catch 22]

Was it not alabadi that posted a video of him playing the white up and down the spots twice ,finding a gap between two balls frozen on the top cushion with only a couple of mm gap ?
If it was him then I wouldn't change a thing lol.